Winnipeg | Perimeter Highway

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

While they were building the St. Mary's over pass they installed a new set of lights at Wenzel St. A lights free perimeter seems hopeless.

I still do not understand the St.Mary's overpass. Unless they are planning on eventually making it a cloverleaf, it made no sense to move so much earth, and make it so wide.

Considering not many people are known to use St.Mary's south of the Perimeter, compared to St.Mary's inside the perimeter, they should have saved money and built it as a diamond interchange, similar to what they are doing at McGillivary.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

What a joke. I still do not understand the St.Mary's overpass. Unless they are planning on eventually making it a cloverleaf, it made no sense to move so much earth, and make it so wide.

Considering not many people are known to use St.Mary's south of the Perimeter, compared to St.Mary's inside the perimeter, they should have saved money and built it as a diamond interchange, similar to what they are doing at McGillivary.

Google image search a diverging Diamond interchange. The current first phase is a single interchange dog bone style phase 2 is another structure in the format of a diverging Diamond interchange. They do not build cloverleafs anymore as they are a very outdated design and quite frankly dangerous and not safe with all the weaving in and out of traffic.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Wpg_Guy

While they were building the St. Mary's over pass they installed a new set of lights at Wenzel St. A lights free perimeter seems hopeless.

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

Don’t forget Gunn road 🙄

Resources that could have gone to improve the perimeter and build interchanges and make it safer. These traffic lights do the exact opposite. Winnipeg is not a serious city when it comes to infrastructure. It really does feel hopeless specially when we see much smaller cities with better roads and limited access freeways, pretty much all Canadian cities.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

Google image search a diverging Diamond interchange. The current first phase is a single interchange dog bone style phase 2 is another structure in the format of a diverging Diamond interchange. They do not build cloverleafs anymore as they are a very outdated design and quite frankly dangerous and not safe with all the weaving in and out of traffic.

How are cloverleafs more dangerous, especially in comparison to diamond interchanges? In the Calgary and Edmonton ring roads, most interchanges are partial cloverleafs, or half cloverleafs.

I've never seen an accident on a cloverleaf by weaving personally. I have seen accidents on diamond interchanges at the lights of the off-ramp.

[biguc]

Exiting cars slowing down share a lane with entering cars speeding up. I guess you could eliminate it by having exit lanes pass under entering leafs, but then you have to make extra bridges for each leaf, and main bridge wider, and probably the entire thing bigger. At a certain point you may as well make a stack.

I'm not sure I see much of a case for cloverleafs. If you have two free-flowing highways intersecting, build a stack. If you have a non-free-flowing road (a la St Mary's) intersecting with a highway, just make a diamond.

[Dengler Avenue]

And there’s a huge difference between partial and full cloverleaves.
Ps: I think that spots like TCH West to PTH-100 West and PTH-100 West to Headingley Bypass should get flyover ramps like PTH-101 East to PTH-59 North.

[bomberjet]

Cloverleafs are still functional and safe with the collector lanes for merging. Such as at 101/7 and 101/8, and 101/59.

If the side road coming in is a lesser road, than parclos or other things may be better. I'm not 100% convinced but whatever.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

Google image search a diverging Diamond interchange. The current first phase is a single interchange dog bone style phase 2 is another structure in the format of a diverging Diamond interchange. They do not build cloverleafs anymore as they are a very outdated design and quite frankly dangerous and not safe with all the weaving in and out of traffic.

It will end up being the most comically overbuilt diverging diamond in north america. Simple diamond would have been more or less adequate, with the current configuration definitely fine. I am just spitballing here but they may be planning for the days when the fields south of the perimeter in that area get developed into residential neighbourhoods. The only traffic movement a simple diamond would not handle well there currently has to be the EB to NB turn during rush hour.

[bomberjet]

I feel like MTI went with less complex, simple interchanges for PTH 101 study. They had elaborate, realignments proposed for some options during the study. Such as at PTH 6. But in the end people said simplify even if it means adding an extra overpass, or closing some roads. Much more simple and predictable. Basic diamonds are that way. Exit right and expect an intersection.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by biguc

Exiting cars slowing down share a lane with entering cars speeding up. I guess you could eliminate it by having exit lanes pass under entering leafs, but then you have to make extra bridges for each leaf, and main bridge wider, and probably the entire thing bigger. At a certain point you may as well make a stack.

I'm not sure I see much of a case for cloverleafs. If you have two free-flowing highways intersecting, build a stack. If you have a non-free-flowing road (a la St Mary's) intersecting with a highway, just make a diamond.

Id have to pull up google maps, but I believe that is how they designed the Alberta half cloverleafs.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

It will end up being the most comically overbuilt diverging diamond in north america. Simple diamond would have been more or less adequate, with the current configuration definitely fine. I am just spitballing here but they may be planning for the days when the fields south of the perimeter in that area get developed into residential neighbourhoods. The only traffic movement a simple diamond would not handle well there currently has to be the EB to NB turn during rush hour.

I really cannot see the city developing the agricultural land south of 100, between St Mary's and Ste Anne's anytime soon. One would think they would develop the area south of Wilkes, north of Saskatchewan Ave, or even build up the area around Waverley, south of 100 first.

However, with this city, anything is possible, no matter how convoluted it may be.

[Mr Tall Forehead]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I really cannot see the city developing the agricultural land south of 100, between St Mary's and Ste Anne's anytime soon. One would think they would develop the area south of Wilkes, north of Saskatchewan Ave, or even build up the area around Waverley, south of 100 first.

However, with this city, anything is possible, no matter how convoluted it may be.

The big development companies in Winnipeg have been land banking in both south Charleswood (south of Wilkes) and south, south St Vital (south of Perimeter) for years now. I would guess that south St V will go ahead before south Charleswood, as the infrastructure requirements are cheaper in the southeast and the land fragmentation is worse south of Wilkes. It's probably only 5-10 years out.

[bomberjet]

Those are the 2 biggest tracts of land within City of Winnipeg boundaries. They'll be developed whenever the development companies want to go ahead.

Beyond my lifetime is what I'd bet in terms of time frame of actual movement on those lands.

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

I've never seen an accident on a cloverleaf by weaving personally. I have seen accidents on diamond interchanges at the lights of the off-ramp.

Try hopping on to the Perimeter at rush hour using either the Pembina or Portage interchanges.

Do it regularly and you'll see how dicey the weaving can get, I used to have that pleasure during my old commute.

Cars traveling at ~40kmh up the ramp have about 100m to merge with 100-115 km/h traffic, and those traveling 100- 115 km/h have to share the same space to decelerate to 40 km/h.

It doesn't help that those two interchanges are quite compact, so the loop ramp limits how fast you can be at when approaching the merge area and how short of a strip you have to get on to the Perimeter. But the concept holds true even for larger full cloverleaf interchanges. The collector lanes at 101/8 and 101/7 help but don't eliminate the problem entirely.

Full clovers are fine in rural areas with low traffic counts, or if one ramp is really not utilized, like the TCH and highway 12.

Partial cloverleafs like the ones you mention in Calgary and Edmonton don't have the weaving, there's no area where accelerating traffic has to contend with thru-traffic and decelerating traffic all together.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by WildCake

Try hopping on to the Perimeter at rush hour using either the Pembina or Portage interchanges.

Do it regularly and you'll see how dicey the weaving can get, I used to have that pleasure during my old commute.

Cars traveling at ~40kmh up the ramp have about 100m to merge with 100-115 km/h traffic, and those traveling 100- 115 km/h have to share the same space to decelerate to 40 km/h.

It doesn't help that those two interchanges are quite compact, so the loop ramp limits how fast you can be at when approaching the merge area and how short of a strip you have to get on to the Perimeter. But the concept holds true even for larger full cloverleaf interchanges. The collector lanes at 101/8 and 101/7 help but don't eliminate the problem entirely.

Full clovers are fine in rural areas with low traffic counts, or if one ramp is really not utilized, like the TCH and highway 12.

Partial cloverleafs like the ones you mention in Calgary and Edmonton don't have the weaving, there's no area where accelerating traffic has to contend with thru-traffic and decelerating traffic all together.

The Portage interchange is dangerous, as is Henderson coming off the Perimeter if someone isn't familiar with it. They were built when traffic volumes were a fraction of those today.

Compare PTH 100/101 with the Regina By-Pass.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The Portage interchange is dangerous, as is Henderson coming off the Perimeter if someone isn't familiar with it. They were built when traffic volumes were a fraction of those today.

Compare PTH 100/101 with the Regina By-Pass.

Same with PTH 101 and number one going east to Deacon’s. It’s the worst at rush-hour and cottage country commuters. I think on the plan they are adding structures on each side for feeder lanes to separate the merging from through traffic. That needs to be done now on these structures! portage Avenue is being reconstructed through Headingley to the perimeter I saw. Hopefully they will retrofit that interchange with this reconstruction project.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The Portage interchange is dangerous, as is Henderson coming off the Perimeter if someone isn't familiar with it. They were built when traffic volumes were a fraction of those today.

Compare PTH 100/101 with the Regina By-Pass.

By far the most dangerous is still Wilkes and it is ironically one of the easier ones to fix.

Wilkes has two issues. The merge into north bound traffic is immediately after a veery tight turn which significantly limits speed and then it occurs at the top of the bridge and forces traffic to merge almost immediately into a posted 100 km/h lane. On the southbound side, the exit is on the blind (down) side of the overpass but almost immediately after clearing the bridge.

The land on either side of the Perimeter is currently undeveloped. If the contact points were moved significantly south of the current bridge and had longer acceleration/deceleration lanes it would significantly improve that interchange and is a fraction of the costs of work needed elsewhere such as the full bridge replacement that happened at Roblin a few years back.

[Biff]

Like this?

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by Biff

Like this?

What would it realistically cost to upgrade Wilkes and Rosser with these extended ramps? $20 mil?

These a low hanging fruit projects that should have been lumped into the upgrades to the service roads when they eliminated access points.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Sheesh this is embarrassing. Skip to 13:28


https://youtu.be/H4gLFuVMRxo?si=hZhhbNmohWuAOH0a