Statistics Canada Reports II

[DavidK93]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's not clear when you dig in a bit. For example, CBRE has "How is Tech Talent quality vs. cost measured?". They answer that there isn't a good way so their proxy is that they picked the top 5 CS schools in Canada as measured by the U.S. News & World Report. So whatever cities have one or more of those institutions will get a big bump and #6 counts for nothing.

They have an AI section because AI is trendy and it shows the SF Bay Area has around 3x the AI employment of Toronto. This might be a bit of a proxy for people working in newer areas.

Fortinet is a good example where they maintain their HQ in the US. It's not a top tier company. Vancouver has only in the last few years gotten relatively small development offices for some of the major tech companies. Some of these were to manage visa issues with the USA; Canadians were expected to move to Washington or California.

It's interesting to discuss but quasi-arbitrary composite metrics are often much lower in quality than other data (real data?).

I agree with you, it's not a perfect rating system, but there isn't any one good system because everyone's rating system is different. I find CBRE is at least consistent. There are some gray areas of course.
Also in terms of numbers any given list is going to have inconsistencies. Some companies list a certain amount of employees in a given city, but many of those are physically somewhere else. Some may actually be listed in more than one city.

What I really want to look at is where the numbers are trending. The Canadian cities, particularly Toronto, Vancouver and Calgary are doing very well.

[someone123]

I still think the elephant in the room is that Canada seems to struggle to grow large and impactful companies. Nobody really expects OpenAI or Anthropic to be from Toronto, nor did we expect the previous generation of Googles or Amazons. The companies providing the underlying services and hardware for AI are still all Bay Area HQs.

It's not the end of the world but I don't think the answer to that concern is that Toronto has a lot of U of T grads working for branch offices of Google or Amazon so there is no material difference, particularly in the era of Trump. The underlying issues of talent retention and financing would have been more fixable in the 2000s and 2010s but nobody thought much of it back then.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Toronto coming close to overtaking the Bay Area for tech workforce is insane. It’s clear though that Dallas and Seattle have been eating away at the Bay Area for at least a few years now and that trend is probably not slowing down anytime soon.

Also important to note that employees =/= overall tech clout.

Toronto may pass the Bay Area in total tech jobs soon.. but Bay Area tech jobs generally pay 2-5x as much as Toronto tech jobs.

While not universally the case, many jobs in Toronto are "lower tier" than those in the Bay Area. Only very valuable employees are based in the Bay Area to take advantage of the locational advantages there, but as an employee costs so much more there many companies are strategic in what positions they place there. The "lower value" positions can be farmed out to lower cost jurisdictions.

And Canada does great on those "lower value" positions as we offer high-quality employees in north america with native english speaking and easy cultural integration with the lead teams stateside or whatever, with salary costs a fraction of what it would be in SFO or even DFW.

Everyone I know who works in tech, with a handful of exemptions who work for Canadian companies, are usually part of a team which is lead from the Bay Area and staffed with varying levels of employees scattered across Canada and the US.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by someone123

I still think the elephant in the room is that Canada seems to struggle to grow large and impactful companies. Nobody really expects OpenAI or Anthropic to be from Toronto, nor did we expect the previous generation of Googles or Amazons. The companies providing the underlying services and hardware for AI are still all Bay Area HQs.

Outside of the US and now China that's kind of the case for the rest of the world, those two countries dominate the high end of tech, and even within the US, it's mainly two cities SF and Seattle that control the high end of tech. Jobs are jobs, and high growth in that sector is good even if the jobs are regional, closer to the mid-level or HQ jobs for a smaller company. Those jibs are above average pay and great for city building. Those very high end super high paying jobs are low in numbers, and they don't necessarily benefit the local community. It helps produce super rich enclaves for people.

As high end as the jobs in SF might be, they still lost a lot of jobs. It's not the direction you want to be on.

[ericmacm]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also important to note that employees =/= overall tech clout.

Toronto may pass the Bay Area in total tech jobs soon.. but Bay Area tech jobs generally pay 2-5x as much as Toronto tech jobs.

While not universally the case, many jobs in Toronto are "lower tier" than those in the Bay Area. Only very valuable employees are based in the Bay Area to take advantage of the locational advantages there, but as an employee costs so much more there many companies are strategic in what positions they place there. The "lower value" positions can be farmed out to lower cost jurisdictions.

And Canada does great on those "lower value" positions as we offer high-quality employees in north america with native english speaking and easy cultural integration with the lead teams stateside or whatever, with salary costs a fraction of what it would be in SFO or even DFW.

Everyone I know who works in tech, with a handful of exemptions who work for Canadian companies, are usually part of a team which is lead from the Bay Area and staffed with varying levels of employees scattered across Canada and the US.

Of course, that is absolutely the case. I would expect much of the Toronto tech workforce to belong to fintech as well as satellite/support offices for the FAANG/Mag 7, paying lower than the Bay Area. I have a few friends that work/have worked for Microsoft in Toronto, much of the “higher value” positions are located in Seattle.

There is a lot to be said about how we struggle to build powerful domestic tech firms, but we shouldn’t knock too hard on our workforce numbers, even if they are mainly “lower value” jobs. It’s still a massive achievement to have multiple Canadian cities be successful in the competition for tech talent in an industry that effectively lives in a borderless environment. It is a bad thing to be bleeding tech jobs like the Bay Area is.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by someone123

I still think the elephant in the room is that Canada seems to struggle to grow large and impactful companies. Nobody really expects OpenAI or Anthropic to be from Toronto, nor did we expect the previous generation of Googles or Amazons. The companies providing the underlying services and hardware for AI are still all Bay Area HQs.

It's not the end of the world but I don't think the answer to that concern is that Toronto has a lot of U of T grads working for branch offices of Google or Amazon so there is no material difference, particularly in the era of Trump. The underlying issues of talent retention and financing would have been more fixable in the 2000s and 2010s but nobody thought much of it back then.

Is this an elephant in the room though?

It's true, Canada has had a history of innovation only to eventually lose out to or be bought out by larger American companies. There are lots of examples over the years, and the cycle always repeats itself.

-Calgary based Novatel once had 85% of the global cellular market
-Nortel, which originated in Ottawa was once the world leader in digital telephone systems
-Ottawa based Newbridge, once was the world leader in Frac T1,DS1/DS3 and a multiplexing and a global leader in ATM switching.
-KW based Blackberry
-Ottawa based JDS
-Ottawa based Corel
-Ottawa based Mitel (not trying to pick on Ottawa, it just happened to be where most of Canada's tech industry was)
-Toronto based ATI
-Edmonton based Bioware. Still around, but is a fraction of what it used to be and doesn't really have a future now that it's owned by EA.


There are plenty more examples, and it seems to be a cycle. This isn't happening to only Canada, it's the same cycle for most countries in the world.
Tech isn't like regular industries; auto, textile, kitchenware, etc...where multiple competitors from multiple countries can last a long time. High tech gravitates quickly to the market leaders, and competitors fall quickly.
The US with 340 million people, and trillions of investment dollars were always going to be the market leaders. The only difference these days is China, another country with a huge population and trillions of investment dollars is also in the mix.

The strategy for tech companies these days seems to be, attract startup money, get a good product out there and make some waves. Cash in when a large American company comes along to buy you out.

As far as tech jobs in Canada go, the IT software development jobs, the jobs at regional hubs like Amazon, etc.., and so forth are still good jobs to have. They're well paid professional jobs and maybe it's best to think of them like we do for well paying professional jobs in other industries? Just my two cents.

[Chocolite]

They are using NACIT guidelines, which means they are consistent, but within the guidelines there is a wide range. This does not include call centre jobs, but could include some IT support jobs. The definition is pretty broad, but it's already been said that the definition isn't perfect and it never will be.

Most of the IT jobs that make up the numbers won't be top level scientific jobs, and nor does it matter. Those jobs are few and far between, and are mostly in Silicon Valley. The ones that matter are those engineering, IT support and software developer jobs. The Bay area might have added or retained a few hundred top level scientific jobs, but they lost 24,000 other good paying ones. IMO, you want your city to be gaining in the middle to upper middle jobs, which Toronto has done nicely.

Originally Posted by someone123

What is "tech"? Some seem to include IT, which doesn't generally involve developing new technology. Software development may or may not. If we're talking about "working with technology" then this includes all of humanity and perhaps some other primates. Does tech include a call centre worker? How do they survey smaller operations, like somebody who's got a computer science degree and is writing a game in their parents' basement?

Maybe they should be clearer about what they are measuring, like if they are interested in software development. You could measure something like "employment software companies with more than 10 employees".

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also important to note that employees =/= overall tech clout.

Toronto may pass the Bay Area in total tech jobs soon.. but Bay Area tech jobs generally pay 2-5x as much as Toronto tech jobs.

While not universally the case, many jobs in Toronto are "lower tier" than those in the Bay Area. Only very valuable employees are based in the Bay Area to take advantage of the locational advantages there, but as an employee costs so much more there many companies are strategic in what positions they place there. The "lower value" positions can be farmed out to lower cost jurisdictions.

And Canada does great on those "lower value" positions as we offer high-quality employees in north america with native english speaking and easy cultural integration with the lead teams stateside or whatever, with salary costs a fraction of what it would be in SFO or even DFW.

Everyone I know who works in tech, with a handful of exemptions who work for Canadian companies, are usually part of a team which is lead from the Bay Area and staffed with varying levels of employees scattered across Canada and the US.

To be fair, this is true for pretty much every tech market outside the US. Silicon Valley is an extreme outlier and now American tech outposts lesser ones as opposed to Toronto tech salaries being particularly low.

Weirdly enough all the people I know in tech (including my wife) are in Canadian based companies and make well over what reddit seems to think is the tech salary cap here.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

Most of the IT jobs that make up the numbers won't be top level scientific jobs, and nor does it matter. Those jobs are few and far between, and are mostly in Silicon Valley. The ones that matter are those engineering, IT support and software developer jobs. The Bay area might have added or retained a few hundred top level scientific jobs, but they lost 24,000 other good paying ones. IMO, you want your city to be gaining in the middle to upper middle jobs, which Toronto has done nicely.

Originally Posted by niwell

To be fair, this is true for pretty much every tech market outside the US. Silicon Valley is an extreme outlier and now American tech outposts lesser ones as opposed to Toronto tech salaries being particularly low.

Weirdly enough all the people I know in tech (including my wife) are in Canadian based companies and make well over what reddit seems to think is the tech salary cap here.

My thoughts exactly. As globalization has evolved, high tech or the highest part of tech is concentrated in very few areas, example Silicon Valley as you mentioned.
We could split the category into tech and high tech, with high tech being the research heavy, highly scientific portion, and we'd find there are many of those jobs outside of the Silicon Valley.
I look at regular tech jobs as very desirable. They're white collar jobs that pay well (averages for Canada are ~120K/yr) and all cities would love to have more of these types of jobs.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by someone123

If we're talking about "working with technology" then this includes all of humanity and perhaps some other primates.

[someone123]

I don't think it is true that only the US has major or long-term successful tech companies. The UK has ARM, Germany has SAP, the NL has ASML, Sweden Spotify, and there are many others. Just about every successful East Asian country has some kind of ecosystem of successful high tech companies, often more oriented toward hardware.

I also believe a lot of Canada's competitiveness problems are fixable. The housing market is by itself a huge factor. We have advantages like shared language and similar time zones to the US and lower wages.

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Technically Canada does have Shopify which isn't as visible since it mainly offers enterprise rather than consumer services. But it exists.

[kora]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^ Technically Canada does have Shopify which isn't as visible since it mainly offers enterprise rather than consumer services. But it exists.

#2 company in Canada by market cap.

[kora]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think it is true that only the US has major or long-term successful tech companies. The UK has ARM, Germany has SAP, the NL has ASML, Sweden Spotify, and there are many others. Just about every successful East Asian country has some kind of ecosystem of successful high tech companies, often more oriented toward hardware.

In terms of software companies, Shopify has the 10th highest market cap of any company in the world. Outside of American companies, only SAP is bigger in 7th place.

I'll also add that for e-commerce companies, Shopify has the 3rd highest market cap of any company. Amazon being notably #1 and Alibaba #2.

[someone123]

Yes, Shopify is a good success story in Canada. It's interesting that so many have historically been in Ottawa (while Toronto doesn't seem to have produced as many in proportional terms). Ottawa doesn't have a top CS school either, while Toronto does.

I think we could have had more large and successful HQs like that in Canada with different policies.

[Surrealplaces]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't think it is true that only the US has major or long-term successful tech companies. The UK has ARM, Germany has SAP, the NL has ASML, Sweden Spotify, and there are many others. Just about every successful East Asian country has some kind of ecosystem of successful high tech companies, often more oriented toward hardware.

I also believe a lot of Canada's competitiveness problems are fixable. The housing market is by itself a huge factor. We have advantages like shared language and similar time zones to the US and lower wages.

I was exaggerating somewhat when I said the US had all of the high tech. They have the vast majority of it, but as you pointed out there other tech companies floating around.
In the top 100 tech companies by market capital, 57 are based in the US, and 28 are based in the Pacific Rim (China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan), and 9 are based in Europe.
Given Canada's standard of living, competition isn't easy. We can adjust cost of housing, but I doubt we'd be able to compete with US or Pacific Rim.
We can compete with Europe, but there are only 9 out of the top 100 top tech companies based in Europe despite the continent having 740 million people, with lots of money for subsidization.

I'm not saying we shouldn't keep pushing the high end tech, but over the years we've seen that these jobs come and go. They're still worthy of pursuit, but circling back to the report that started the discussion, we have to ask ourselves what it is that we want from a tech industry? what's good for the community? In the end it's the same as all industries, it comes down to good paying jobs. Toronto added 75,000 jobs that pay an average salary of 117K per year.
We can have a few more super high end jobs so we can build a few more McMansions, and add a second porsche dealership, but along with it we can have 10s of thousands of jobs that are less sexy, but still pay well above average.

[someone123]

We actually have a lot of competitive advantages relative to the USA. We have a very good post secondary education system and pretty good standard of living in cities. The health care system is a plus for people starting businesses too. Vancouver and Toronto are much more livable than most American cities. Unfortunately, housing costs effectively kill that advantage for younger Canadians and we get nothing out of post secondary education if people leave the country after.

I suspect there's room for improvement with small scale investment in startups, although the opportunities probably aren't as good as they could have been in the 2000s and 2010s. The tax system needs some updates too. The tax treatment for flipping real estate is far friendlier than it is if you're an early startup employee with stock options. It's better if you are a founder.

[cranes]

From across the pond:

BlackBerry is back… and they’re not selling phones
@TLDR Business Aug 26, 2026

The collapse of BlackBerry with the dawn of the iPhone was spectacular, but they never fully went away. Now their pivot towards software and cybersecurity is paying off and their valuation is having a modest rise, so can they hold onto their new success?

• Video Link

[sgera]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yes, Shopify is a good success story in Canada. It's interesting that so many have historically been in Ottawa (while Toronto doesn't seem to have produced as many in proportional terms). Ottawa doesn't have a top CS school either, while Toronto does.

I think we could have had more large and successful HQs like that in Canada with different policies.

I think you’ll find this site interesting: www.Unicornnorth.com

Profiles the evolution of the tech industry in canada and which tech hubs were most successful.

[svlt]

Originally Posted by cranes

From across the pond:

BlackBerry is back… and they’re not selling phones
@TLDR Business Aug 26, 2026



• Video Link

They've been an excellent (unusual for me) stock pick and a solid double up from earlier this year. no advice for what's next but this company is far, far from dead - they avoided the nortel fate and successfully pivoted.