Kitchener-Waterloo: a microcosm of modern Canada?

[Docere]

So like Michigan with more condos?

[shappy]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

we got a lot of inflow from Toronto in the post-pandemic years. Mostly "real estate refugees", as Toronto, and KWC had gotten so expensive.

Yes, definitely. According to Gemini, KWC almost double and Hamilton almost 3x as many people though. Proximity more than anything else, I imagine. London avg selling price still decent at about $600,000.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

London is declining and booming at the same time. While the highrise construction (and sprawl) has been at unprecedented until very recently, the downtown has decayed even more quickly.

Which is odd in comparison to Hamilton. I've watched the inner city get more lively and vibrant since I moved back to Ontario in 2014.

I have an acquaintance that lives downtown with his partner. They used to live inner-city but closer to the escarpment (more residential feeling) and now they are right in the heart of the city in one of the new 30 something storey residential towers built in the past 5 years.

He loves it. He's told me he's getting a lot more exercise by walking daily and watching new restaurants, shops, businesses opening up and more people walking around downtown than he can recall from the previous decade.

Downtown Hamilton (like most Ontario cities in 2026) isn't without challenges but he is glad to see it evolve right before his eyes.

Fellow forumer niwell is kinda like me where he's always had a soft spot for Hamilton and he also has friends from Toronto that have now called the Hammer home, some of which have been involved in new restaurants and bars.

Here's a couple of pics from 2024 of The Rooftop bar of a restaurant called Plank

[Docere]

Southern Ontario outside Toronto hasn't really quite gone the way of the American rust belt or the West Midlands.

There's decent immigration levels and growth, and it's not "falling behind" in the same way.

Though admittedly I have not explored Fake London recently.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

Southern Ontario outside Toronto hasn't really quite gone the way of the American rust belt or the West Midlands.

There's decent immigration levels and growth, and it's not "falling behind" in the same way.

Though admittedly I have not explored Fake London recently.

forumer hkskyline did a recent photo thread of Birmingham and it actually looks pretty cool. Ozzy Osbourne's hometown.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=264775

[Docere]

Birmingham is a much bigger city than Hamilton though. So it should look and feel bigger than Hamilton.

It's common among Canadians to knock the Americans for "their rust belt" but I think there's an argument to be made that the British did as much damage with their London-centric policies. They threw everything into London being the global capital and finance over manufacturing, allowing the regions to fall behind.

The gap between London and Southeast England and the rest is enormous. Too much emphasis on the primate city.

[Wigs]

I wasn't comparing it to Hamilton. I only brought it up because you brought up the Rust Belt of the UK and I thought people might want to check out a recent photo thread by a fellow forumer that is relevant to the discussion. A place most Canucks know nothing about.

[Docere]

It'll be interesting to see if Andy Burnham, the "King of the North", changes anything.

[Docere]

Average income and % of Canadian average

Hamilton CMA $57,650 106
Kitchener CMA $54,700 100
London CMA $51,200 94
Windsor CMA $51,080 94

Median Household Income and % of Canadian average

Hamilton CMA $91,000 108
Kitchener CMA $92,000 110
London CMA $79,500 95
Windsor CMA $82,000 98

Detached Dwelling

Hamilton CMA 55.1%
Kitchener CMA 53%
London CMA 55%
Windsor CMA 69.6%

[Wigs]

Everyone in southern Ontario knows Burlington helps lift Hamilton CMA up higher than it would be on its own. Definitely an above average income city by Canadian standards.

[Docere]

Oh yes - for sure. Burlington is a "bridge" (literally and figuratively) between the Greater Toronto Area and Hamilton. In line with its middling position, more Burlington workers work in Hamilton than Toronto proper, but more Burlington workers work in other GTA municipalities than what Statcan deems its "central city."

Since Hamilton is itself a census division, here's the figures just for Hamilton.

Average income $53,750 99
Median household income $86,000 102
Detached dwelling 56.2%

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Docere

Oh yes - for sure. Burlington is a "bridge" (literally and figuratively) between the Greater Toronto Area and Hamilton. In line with its middling position, more Burlington workers work in Hamilton than Toronto proper, but more Burlington workers work in other GTA municipalities than what Statcan deems its "central city."

Since Hamilton is itself a census division, here's the figures just for Hamilton.

Average income $53,750 99
Median household income $86,000 102
Detached dwelling 56.2%

Thanks for this breakdown. I thought if you removed Burlington the incomes would drop them significantly lower and the detached dwelling number would decrease not increase! haha

The lower city fools one into thinking Hamilton is a majority multi-family dwelling city

[Docere]

Without Burlington pushing up the incomes, Hamilton slips from slightly above average to dead average!

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Thanks for this breakdown. I thought if you removed Burlington the incomes would drop them lower and the detached dwelling number would decrease not increase! haha

The lower city fools one into thinking Hamilton is a majority multi-family dwelling city

Does it really? Like sure there are apartment buildings, but also huge swaths of very dense - and yet still detached - houses.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

London is declining and booming at the same time. While the highrise construction (and sprawl) has been at unprecedented until very recently, the downtown has decayed even more quickly.

I find this strange, given how London became one of Ontario's hotspots for people leaving the GTA in search of cheaper housing. I would have assumed at least some of those people were would-be urbanites who'd be happy to gentrify and revitalize London's inner neighbourhoods.

Anyway, it's too bad to hear! There seems to be maybe a split in Canada between cities that have seen inner-city decline in the years since the pandemic (London, and I'd say Edmonton and even Ottawa, to a much more minor degree) and those that have seen revitalization (Calgary, Halifax, and even Toronto, which seemed to be struggling in 2021-23 but to my eyes has really bounced back.)

[MolsonExport]

There is no doubt that downtown London has decayed considerably since the pandemic. While at the same time, the population of downtown (and the broader CMA) has surged.

I agree that downtown Toronto has largely recovered since the pandemic. Montreal too. Can't speak for Edmonton, as I haven't been there in awhile, but downtown Calgary appears to have bounced back. Downtown Ottawa certainly has parts that have become more rough-edged (I'm thinking around Byward Market, for example, as well as the southern stretches of Bank Street)

Downtown London...has been a great disappointment in the 21 years that I have lived here. Just when it was getting back on its feet again (after the Great Recession, which devastated London's industrial base), the pandemic pulled the rug out from beneath it. And it has gotten steadily worse since then, notwithstanding the flurry of new towers (including a new tallest).

What about the downtown(s) of KWC? Are they similar to that of London? How about Windsor? the last time I was in downtown Windsor, it felt pretty sketchy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

There is no doubt that downtown London has decayed considerably since the pandemic. While at the same time, the population of downtown (and the broader CMA) has surged.

I agree that downtown Toronto has largely recovered since the pandemic. Montreal too. Can't speak for Edmonton, as I haven't been there in awhile, but downtown Calgary appears to have bounced back. Downtown Ottawa certainly has parts that have become more rough-edged (I'm thinking around Byward Market, for example, as well as the southern stretches of Bank Street)

Downtown London...has been a great disappointment in the 21 years that I have lived here. Just when it was getting back on its feet again (after the Great Recession, which devastated London's industrial base), the pandemic pulled the rug out from beneath it. And it has gotten steadily worse since then, notwithstanding the flurry of new towers (including a new tallest).

What about the downtown(s) of KWC? Are they similar to that of London? How about Windsor? the last time I was in downtown Windsor, it felt pretty sketchy.

Uptown Waterloo is relatively upscale and OK, if not particularly exciting. Downtown KItchener is a different story - every time things seem to be looking up, it seems to take another hit. Retail is very weak, although more food outlets have opened such that it's no longer a food desert.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Does it really? Like sure there are apartment buildings, but also huge swaths of very dense - and yet still detached - houses.

To my eyes it does. Even many of those old brick 2-2.5 storey homes are subdivided into 2+ apartments.

In contrast to endless cookie cutter post war tract housing of Hamilton "Mountain"/the upper city.

This is why data is important. Prove preconceived notions or anecdotes, personal opinions like mine to be wrong

[Truenorth00]

A big problem with talking about a microcosm in Canada is the variability.

Mean CMA population in Canada is 760k. Median CMA population is 240k. Which one better reflects Canada?

[Docere]

Close to half of Canadians live in the six CMAs of over 1,000,000. So cities in the size range of 500,000-1,000,000 (i.e. Winnipeg, Hamilton, KWC) is more in line with the Canadian average than somewhere like Saskatoon, Kelowna or Barrie.