[Dartmouth] Dartmouth Cove | ? m | ? fl | Vision

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by HarbingerDe

I'm pretty sure King's Wharf and a number of other infill projects around the harbour are also mostly pyritic slate dumps.

Well, yes, of course they are. What's your point?

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

OK, it makes sense that there needs to be a location to dispose of the slate. What I do not know is whether the cove as it currently is has much depth or any use as a marine site if unchanged. I look at that abandoned pier just south of the Macdonald bridge and wonder if perhaps that might be a useful site for such things. Or some other location outside of the city.

I’ve always wondered whether infill could be added in Bedford basin along the route of the CN tracks so that a dedicated commuter rail line could be created

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I’ve always wondered whether infill could be added in Bedford basin along the route of the CN tracks so that a dedicated commuter rail line could be created

Sounds like a good idea but I wonder if there is enough ROW next to the CN easement once you get inland - unless there was another route that could be followed, like maybe cutting into the active trails a little to benefit moving more people with commuter rail? Or maybe convert some of the BRT ROWs to accommodate both bus and rail traffic?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Musquodoboit County

Here's my little rant:
If you own a house in the middle of a growing city CENTER, why not sell and move out of the city center if what you want is no development, no high rises, no traffic etc etc. Why stay and fight against every single development that could actually bring economic oxygen to a stagnant economy. Atlantic Canada needs a major city. Nova Scotia needs a major city. Major cities are the heart and lungs of any regional economic ecosystem. The city center of Halifax and Dartmouth need major developments. Infills like kings wharf are driving the future of Halifax for the betterment of all Atlantic Canada

In a democratic society, people have the right to voice opposition to plans that affect their lives, including what happens around their home. A democratic government's job is to weigh the needs and concerns of their communities and decide which is the best course of action. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, and the citizens of the democracy get to decide whether the courses of action were the right ones, through voting in democratic elections.

Suggesting that people should move out of their homes because somebody else wants to decide what's best for them would be taking away their right to participate in the democracy, wouldn't it?

Also, FWIW, King's Wharf was a converted industrial site that already had some degree of infill. As far as Dartmouth Cove is concerned, the plan doesn't seem clear at the moment, although it does look like a good opportunity to extend the planned development of the Canal St. area right to the water.

I guess we'll see what happens as more info comes out.

[Musquodoboit County]

Just suggesting it. It's what I would do. If too many high rises are going up around me and I don't like it, I would seriously consider selling and buying a place in an area that is more suited to my small town preferences.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Musquodoboit County

Just suggesting it. It's what I would do. If too many high rises are going up around me and I don't like it, I would seriously consider selling and buying a place in an area that is more suited to my small town preferences.

Perhaps that's what some people will do. However, I do think it would put you in a difficult situation. You could sell the house you love in the neighbourhood that you love only to find that there are no other houses available in neighbourhoods that you like as much, or maybe none are available or you couldn't afford it. A housing crisis means that it's difficult for anybody to move because the supply just isn't there. Sometimes it's not as easy as saying "just do this or that".

Me, I would just stay in my home, accepting that buildings will be built around me and adapt to it. However not everybody is the same...

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

In the Feedback section of AllNS this past week there was a response to Mayor Fillmore calling Dartmouth Cove an 'Industrial Harbour' unlike the Northwest Arm...


Dartmouth Cove by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


While there may be some nuance between what was actually said and meant, there is obviously some conflict between some citizens and municipal leaders in terms of the harbour use. Personally, I think everyone should have the luxury of walking to work and residential and business/industry should be mixed as much as possible... with obnoxious types of industry kept separate. When reading the above, a couple of things came to mind. First was the reference to historical uses and how they should somehow dictate future uses. This is where I typically say that there isn't a building lot where a bear didn't once shit in the woods so the argument over historical use of land holds no water. My other thoughts were centered around Halifax's growing population and where we want people to live in terms of providing necessary services such as transit, water/sewage, roads, housing etc. And what type of city do we need to attract people? Does it make more sense to have citizens far flung and have many traveling en masse to the city centre or put the industry further out and few traveling in the opposite direction? I think the latter. NS has more than 10 thousand kms. of coastline with plenty of sheltered albeit smaller harbours.

Halifax could use a proper beach too. Dartmouth Cove could be an ideal location. The east side of Bedford Basin near Ocean Breezes could be too. Sunset Beach is a huge asset for Vancouver. We could do similar...

Vancouver west end beach by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr

Food for thought.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Good thoughts.

I’m not a fan of double standards, i.e. you can’t fill in lots on the NW Arm because you have to preserve the character of the waterline, but it’s okay to fill in Dartmouth Cove because… its character is not important?

However there are different ways to look at it. One could say that there’s no real argument that there’s public benefit to a bunch of rich people filling in their waterside lots just to make a bigger lot, but filling in some of Dartmouth Cove for projects of public benefit (not private enterprise) could be seen as having more pros than cons, in terms of improving the area for public use… not unlike how Bedford Basin has been filled near Mill Cove for the new ferry terminal.

So, IMHO… depends.

[Keith P.]

Keep in mind that the “Friends of Dartmouth Cove” or whatever the activist group is called is a pretty extreme sort of bunch who want no development there at all (despite it formerly being a shipyard site) and want the usual parkland/recreational sort of uses. Seems like a no-win situation.

[ngunda]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Keep in mind that the “Friends of Dartmouth Cove” or whatever the activist group is called is a pretty extreme sort of bunch who want no development there at all (despite it formerly being a shipyard site) and want the usual parkland/recreational sort of uses. Seems like a no-win situation.

Against my better judgement I’ll take the bait here. The former shipyard site is at King’s Wharf, which is not the area under discussion. Few people have any objection to that development, nor to other developments on the existing land in Dartmouth Cove. Easily thousands of units can and will be created in those areas. For most the fight against ARCP isn’t about blocking construction in the area. The issue is the continued existence of the trail, which was a rare amenity given to the local community when the sewage treatment plant was constructed towards Woodside. If ARCP’s infilling proceeds, access will be blocked intermittently, and with no clear path to development of the new land there’s a good chance of it remaining an eyesore for the foreseeable future and making it a much less pleasant place to walk. And again, there’s no shortage of opportunity sites in the vicinity - the infilling isn’t necessary to meet demand for housing in Dartmouth. I’m sure opinion will vary, but if the city’s proposal is more limited infilling to facilitate the proposed emergency access route, I expect the community will be more receptive. With the benefit of hindsight, the city messed up by not procuring the water lot adjacent to the trail for what likely would have been peanuts.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by ngunda

Against my better judgement I’ll take the bait here. The former shipyard site is at King’s Wharf, which is not the area under discussion. Few people have any objection to that development, nor to other developments on the existing land in Dartmouth Cove. Easily thousands of units can and will be created in those areas. For most the fight against ARCP isn’t about blocking construction in the area. The issue is the continued existence of the trail, which was a rare amenity given to the local community when the sewage treatment plant was constructed towards Woodside. If ARCP’s infilling proceeds, access will be blocked intermittently, and with no clear path to development of the new land there’s a good chance of it remaining an eyesore for the foreseeable future and making it a much less pleasant place to walk. And again, there’s no shortage of opportunity sites in the vicinity - the infilling isn’t necessary to meet demand for housing in Dartmouth. I’m sure opinion will vary, but if the city’s proposal is more limited infilling to facilitate the proposed emergency access route, I expect the community will be more receptive. With the benefit of hindsight, the city messed up by not procuring the water lot adjacent to the trail for what likely would have been peanuts.

If the trail is so important I don't know why Dominion Diving and ARCP can't come to an agreement to allow ARCP drive their trucks onto the Dominion site and dump from there. Dominion is an important inner harbour company that provides specialty diving, repair, and special refuse removal . The trail literally abuts the Dominion site for about a quarter mile just beside Kings Wharf. Not a peep out of the Nimbys for that very industrial site. I wonder if this is a fight to be big man on Campus?

I can see the Port eventually coming up with a combined public Use of the Cove for the Second Cruise terminal that has been touted before and perhaps a public Park covering the water lot after ARCP dumps the slate. None of which will impede the trail. I use the trail quite a bit by parking at Woodside and walking to Alderney as it provides an impressive walking tour of Halifax harbour.

[ngunda]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

If the trail is so important I don't know why Dominion Diving and ARCP can't come to an agreement to allow ARCP drive their trucks onto the Dominion site and dump from there. Dominion is an important inner harbour company that provides specialty diving, repair, and special refuse removal . The trail literally abuts the Dominion site for about a quarter mile just beside Kings Wharf. Not a peep out of the Nimbys for that very industrial site. I wonder if this is a fight to be big man on Campus?

I can see the Port eventually coming up with a combined public Use of the Cove for the Second Cruise terminal that has been touted before and perhaps a public Park covering the water lot after ARCP dumps the slate. None of which will impede the trail. I use the trail quite a bit by parking at Woodside and walking to Alderney as it provides an impressive walking tour of Halifax harbour.

It’s nowhere near a quarter mile, even including the other site next to Dominion. And sure, the trail would be nicer without the industrial sites but they predate the trail so people accept them. I don’t understand your comment about NIMBYs in that context. Access via Dominion makes no sense for several reasons, the primary one being that their lot doesn’t touch ARCP’s.

I doubt a Dartmouth cruise ship terminal will happen but if it does hopefully they’ll put it somewhere like the old Imperial refinery site so the passengers can hop right on the highway to go on their excursions.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by ngunda

It’s nowhere near a quarter mile, even including the other site next to Dominion. And sure, the trail would be nicer without the industrial sites but they predate the trail so people accept them. I don’t understand your comment about NIMBYs in that context. Access via Dominion makes no sense for several reasons, the primary one being that their lot doesn’t touch ARCP’s.

I doubt a Dartmouth cruise ship terminal will happen but if it does hopefully they’ll put it somewhere like the old Imperial refinery site so the passengers can hop right on the highway to go on their excursions.

Both Submarine company's bidding on the RCN's new program have identified the old Esso refinery site for their civilian deep Maintenance facility.

Yet it makes you wonder what the Dartmouth Cove bunch would do if the recent Africaville fill-in was attempted in Dartmouth Cove. No one said a peep there.

The Port has stated that medium term plans include a Dartmouth Cruise terminal to facilitate Annapolis Valley tours. The times are a changin.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by ngunda

With the benefit of hindsight, the city messed up by not procuring the water lot adjacent to the trail for what likely would have been peanuts.

Interesting. That depends on what you consider to be "peanuts".

[someone123]

It's interesting to contrast the beach and park/amenity situation and mentality in Halifax with Vancouver. Parts of Vancouver have an almost resort-like feel (e.g., around Davie and Denman), and there are nice beaches with lots of amenities nearby. As the AI suggests above these beaches are significantly man-made and maintained. The summers here aren't really any longer or hotter than Halifax. Vancouver is a much larger city, but Halifax could have some of the same kinds of amenities.

There is Black Rock Beach but it's kind of underwhelming and low on amenities. The Waegwoltic has an outdoor waterfront pool but it's private. Something like an outdoor saltwater pool by King's Wharf and/or a small beach (which they had in some renderings) with city and harbour views would be great. I wonder if it's possible to do some kind of solar heating system that brings in salt water then heats it a bit more.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's interesting to contrast the beach and park/amenity situation and mentality in Halifax with Vancouver. Parts of Vancouver have an almost resort-like feel (e.g., around Davie and Denman), and there are nice beaches with lots of amenities nearby. As the AI suggests above these beaches are significantly man-made and maintained. The summers here aren't really any longer or hotter than Halifax. Vancouver is a much larger city, but Halifax could have some of the same kinds of amenities.

There is Black Rock Beach but it's kind of underwhelming and low on amenities. The Waegwoltic has an outdoor waterfront pool but it's private. Something like an outdoor saltwater pool by King's Wharf and/or a small beach (which they had in some renderings) with city and harbour views would be great. I wonder if it's possible to do some kind of solar heating system that brings in salt water then heats it a bit more.

Halifax should aim for something like Icebergs at Bondi Beach. Nobody should be swimming in harbour water without significant treatment. I'm not sure people are aware how dirty the water actually is.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Halifax should aim for something like Icebergs at Bondi Beach. Nobody should be swimming in harbour water without significant treatment. I'm not sure people are aware how dirty the water actually is.

Really? as the saying goes it depends. A friend of mine works for Halifax water and has daily access to the Harbour quality report. His Daughters check in with him to see if they could or should swim in the harbour. Most days now you can whereas previous to the downtown treatment center being set up no.

Heavy rainfall can overwhelm the treatment center with some excess effluent but usually three to four Tides dissipates the excess rainfall and brings the water back to clean levels.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Bondi Beach Club by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


A quick pic to illustrate Bondi Beach Iceberg Club... which is very nice. But Dartgard is correct, our harbour is more than clean enough to swim in. And most folks who go to beaches just laze around on the sand anyway, no? ...a sand park by the water.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I was at the waterfront last week with a friend visiting from Ontario who used to live here and remembers the days of all sorts of nastiness floating in the harbour. This is just anecdotal, but he noted more than once how clear the water was. We went down the steps to the water at Queen’s Marque and it was quite obvious that the water quality is much better than the old days.

With water quality data backing it up, I think that the dirty water idea might just be a little outdated. Understandable if you haven’t been in the city for a very long time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

With water quality data backing it up, I think that the dirty water idea might just be a little outdated. Understandable if you haven’t been in the city for a very long time.

This is another area where I notice the glass half full vs. half empty disparity between Vancouver and Halifax. There probably are some differences (like advanced primary treatment vs. secondary and the question of where testing happens). In Vancouver the beaches sometimes exceed recommended levels and there are occasional similar issues with combined outflows rainfall or cruise ships but people view those as aberrations rather than the water "being filthy". Harbour solutions was over 15 years ago but people still seem to believe that sewage is normally dumped directly into the harbour.

Not sure exactly what the situation is but a quick google search indicated that there aren't regular tests along the Halifax waterfront for water quality for recreation. This seems odd as it's a busy area and there are ways to go in the water there like the steps. And it would be good to know which areas are or aren't clean enough and fix problems if they exist.