Statistics Canada Reports II

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

As the current most active developer in the Downtown, we respectfully disagree.

It dipped low, went dark, but like everything ebbs and flows and the outlook is much brighter than even 6 months ago.

Plenty of people have, at various points over the past 40 years, said that downtown Calgary was beyond redemption (doomed forever to be a 9 to 5 office park and collection of ugly parking lots). Heck, plenty of people still say that.

[zoomer]

Yah, there seems to an over enthusiastic piling on re: Edmonton's downtown and where it's at currently. Yet, Pavlov just pointed out criticism's have been made of Calgary over the decades and if you follow the news and dip your toe into any local threads you'll see there is all sorts of complaints or angst about the current states of downtowns across the country. Sure, some are more vibrant than others but a lot of the angst is because we're a group of people who are passionate about downtowns and urbanism and are never satisfied with the status quo. It's ironic as the banned guy who started this all of is from Winnipeg - yet when I read their threads and come across their local news is seems as if the inner city crime and violence is the highest in the country, heritage buildings are abandoned and crumbling, parking lots dominate, there is hardly and retail downtown and no full size grocery stores and there are dozens of fires a year in abandoned buildings. And despite all that, fully true or not, I do feel as if both cities have potential to bounce back based on affordability as a start and they are very proud determined cities with a lot of smart people who are committed to finding solutions. These cities are just at different cycles and you can point to nearly all across the country and find a time when they were down and out and people were picking over their downtown bones.

[kora]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

4. Once the new LRT line opens in 2-3 yrs, that will really push Downtown forward and bring many more folks to the area who will be on foot.

I'm sceptical of this one. I was last in Edmonton in summer 2024 shortly after the new Valley Line LRT opened. The level of open disorder and desperate poverty around the new ground level stations was shocking and something I had never seen before in downtown Edmonton. The new LRT stations already looked like they were 20 years old.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by kora

I'm sceptical of this one. I was last in Edmonton in summer 2024 shortly after the new Valley Line LRT opened. The level of open disorder and desperate poverty around the new ground level stations was shocking and something I had never seen before in downtown Edmonton. The new LRT stations already looked like they were 20 years old.

I don't disagree, but this is headed the right direction and with a lot of senior level support.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

8. Continued pressure on the City to bring workers back to the office more days of the week.

This is a big one, think lots of provincial and municipal employees are still working from home.

Originally Posted by Vantage

too bad it's beyond redemption...

It absolutely is not past redemption, Edmonton is doing many things to improve their center city. It's just seems to take longer than in other cities for some reason.

Originally Posted by Architype

Does anyone think that building giant malls (i.e. North America's largest shopping mall) might have had anything to do with it?

That was a factor in the 80s and 90s, but there are nearly 2 million people in greater Edmonton now, the downtown shouldn't still be handicapped by a mall.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Yah, there seems to an over enthusiastic piling on re: Edmonton's downtown and where it's at currently. Yet, Pavlov just pointed out criticism's have been made of Calgary over the decades and if you follow the news and dip your toe into any local threads you'll see there is all sorts of complaints or angst about the current states of downtowns across the country. Sure, some are more vibrant than others but a lot of the angst is because we're a group of people who are passionate about downtowns and urbanism and are never satisfied with the status quo. It's ironic as the banned guy who started this all of is from Winnipeg - yet when I read their threads and come across their local news is seems as if the inner city crime and violence is the highest in the country, heritage buildings are abandoned and crumbling, parking lots dominate, there is hardly and retail downtown and no full size grocery stores and there are dozens of fires a year in abandoned buildings. And despite all that, fully true or not, I do feel as if both cities have potential to bounce back based on affordability as a start and they are very proud determined cities with a lot of smart people who are committed to finding solutions. These cities are just at different cycles and you can point to nearly all across the country and find a time when they were down and out and people were picking over their downtown bones.

Winnipeg as a city seems to be struggling. It's been a couple years since I was there, but the last time I was it seemed like all their infrastructure was crumbling, there was very little vibrancy and it just felt depressing. I think the problem in Winnipeg is the economy, just doesn't seem to be a lot of high paying jobs that give people disposable income, or the city resources to keep up with infrastructure and beautify the city. Not intending to rag on Winnipeg, just an observation I made travelling there every couple months for about 5 years.

[kora]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

the downtown shouldn't still be handicapped by a mall.

Agreed, this is a non-factor. If anything, successful indoor malls often have an instigating impact on downtown development - think of Eaton Centre in Toronto, Pacific Centre in Vancouver, Square One in Mississauga, Metrotown in Burnaby, or closer to home with the Core in Calgary.

I think one of downtown's gems is the Alberta Legislature Grounds. The active park like setting with a public wading pool/fountain is much better designed and more well used than the legislature grounds I know well in Ontario and BC.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by kora

Agreed, this is a non-factor. If anything, successful indoor malls often have an instigating impact on downtown development - think of Eaton Centre in Toronto, Pacific Centre in Vancouver, Square One in Mississauga, Metrotown in Burnaby, or closer to home with the Core in Calgary.

I think one of downtown's gems is the Alberta Legislature Grounds. The active park like setting with a public wading pool/fountain is much better designed and more well used than the legislature grounds I know well in Ontario and BC.

I really like the Legislature in Edmonton, but I haven't been since Covid - I used to be in Edmonton several times a year for work, but that area never felt busy, perhaps the time of day I wasn't there on weekends (except the occasional Sunday). I know they were in the midst of a major revamp to make the area more pedestrian friendly when I took the pics below in 2018. As for the buildings in Victoria they are always busy with tourists, locals, events, ceremonies and protests (I'm willing to bet the most number of days in Canada knowing BC's and Victoria's protest climate). As far as being friendly for hanging out or having a wading pool, or picnic, fair point. You're limited to sitting on the grass but the perimeter now has really nice seating areas along the whole frontage which double as security/prevention from vehicle attacks.



Edmonton - Legislative Buildings - June 7, 2018 by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

[IMG]

Edmonton - Legislative Buildings - June 7, 2018 by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr[/IMG]

[kora]

Originally Posted by zoomer

I really like the Legislature in Edmonton, but I haven't been since Covid - I used to be in Edmonton several times a year for work, but that area never felt busy, perhaps the time of day I wasn't there on weekends (except the occasional Sunday). I know they were in the midst of a major revamp to make the area more pedestrian friendly when I took the pics below in 2018. As for the buildings in Victoria they are always busy with tourists, locals, events, ceremonies and protests (I'm willing to bet the most number of days in Canada knowing BC's and Victoria's protest climate). As far as being friendly for hanging out or having a wading pool, or picnic, fair point. You're limited to sitting on the grass but the perimeter now has really nice seating areas along the whole frontage which double as security/prevention from vehicle attacks.

This is a good start to look at the completed changes. The pools are full in the summer time.
https://gecarchitecture.com/work/alberta-legislature-north-plaza

[zoomer]

/\ cool thanks for sharing. Looks fantastic although I'd prefer if they cut the concrete back by 30-40% and replace it with grass/natural landscaping.

[BlaineN]

Re: Edmonton's downtown. My own observations is that it's improving. Improving slower than other cities, but still improving, and any city that has a growing economy and population (which is essentially all larger Canadian cities) has a downtown that isn't beyond redemption. It'll come around eventually.

The issue for Edmonton, and again, these are my own observations from when I was considering relocating to Edmonton is that it's very cheap to buy a SFH in the burbs, but not cheap downtown and the downtown doesn't offer a lot to make up for the price difference.

[BlaineN]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Winnipeg as a city seems to be struggling. It's been a couple years since I was there, but the last time I was it seemed like all their infrastructure was crumbling, there was very little vibrancy and it just felt depressing. I think the problem in Winnipeg is the economy, just doesn't seem to be a lot of high paying jobs that give people disposable income, or the city resources to keep up with infrastructure and beautify the city. Not intending to rag on Winnipeg, just an observation I made travelling there every couple months for about 5 years.

I got a good feeling from Winnipeg in recent visits. It feels like the inner city is put together quite well and is evolving. It's evolving kind of slowly like Edmonton's, but to me Winnipeg's inner city feels more cohesive and continuous than Edmonton's. Osbourne Village/Corydon is more accessible than Strathcona/Whyte which are distant from downtown. The Exchange district is closely connected to downtown.

[Coldrsx]

Expansive river valleys do that.

[SFUVancouver]

I have family in Winnipeg and was there last week. They live in Osbourne Village (the Osbourne Village?) and I thought it was a great neighbourhood. Lots of life on the streets, nice density and variety of building types, nice parks, decent bike infrastructure, some great restaurants.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Expansive river valleys do that.

The river valley does cut Edmonton very much in half, but it is what it is. Lots of positives in the river valley to counter the negatives.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The river valley does cut Edmonton very much in half, but it is what it is. Lots of positives in the river valley to counter the negatives.

Yup, and Strathcona and Edmonton were two distinct municipalities up until they were amalgamated in 1912. They still feel quite different today.

[WayneShuster]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Winnipeg as a city seems to be struggling. It's been a couple years since I was there, but the last time I was it seemed like all their infrastructure was crumbling, there was very little vibrancy and it just felt depressing. I think the problem in Winnipeg is the economy, just doesn't seem to be a lot of high paying jobs that give people disposable income, or the city resources to keep up with infrastructure and beautify the city. Not intending to rag on Winnipeg, just an observation I made travelling there every couple months for about 5 years.

Name me one city, especially in Western Canada, that isn't struggling right now with homelessness, crime, addiction, etc. Not sure if you are aware, but many of the homeless that end up in Winnipeg are shipped there from other provinces like BC, Ontario, NS and yes, even Alberta. I know this because I have relatives who work in social services for the MB govt and deal with these people all the time, and know how the system works. The system is badly broken, and does not work in Manitoba's favour as it stands. It needs to be fixed but the provincial leadership seems content on the status quo, unfortunately.

Apparently Wpg/Mb are a dumping ground for troubled people from up north and across the country, thanks in part to the lacklustre provincial leadership who don't seem to be concerned about dealing with the root causes of the issues, and preventing other provinces from shipping there problem people to Manitoba, specifically Winnipeg.

Getting back to the city itself, while its not Montréal or Toronto, there are several neighbourhood that are highly dense and vibrant, including The Exchange which is a great place to get out and explore, and has many interesting shops and restaurants. I feel there are moves to make it a more cohevise and connected neighbourhood, as there are currently many project in development to add hundreds of housing untis to the area and downtown in general. Yes, there are clearly issues, but your perception of the city is somewhat misguided. Not meaning to rag on you, but I'm just trying to provide some context to the conversation.

[WayneShuster]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I have family in Winnipeg and was there last week. They live in Osbourne Village (the Osbourne Village?) and I thought it was a great neighbourhood. Lots of life on the streets, nice density and variety of building types, nice parks, decent bike infrastructure, some great restaurants.

Nah, it's just Osborne Village, or colloquially The Village

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by WayneShuster

Name me one city, especially in Western Canada, that isn't struggling right now with homelessness, crime, addiction, etc. Not sure if you are aware, but many of the homeless that end up in Winnipeg are shipped there from other provinces like BC, Ontario, NS and yes, even Alberta. I know this because I have relatives who work in social services for the MB govt and deal with these people all the time, and know how the system works. The system is badly broken, and does not work in Manitoba's favour as it stands. It needs to be fixed but the provincial leadership seems content on the status quo, unfortunately.

Apparently Wpg/Mb are a dumping ground for troubled people from up north and across the country, thanks in part to the lacklustre provincial leadership who don't seem to be concerned about dealing with the root causes of the issues, and preventing other provinces from shipping there problem people to Manitoba, specifically Winnipeg.

The Exchange is beautiful, as are the forks and a ton of other places in Winnipeg. What I noticed most was the state of the city and the general level of disrepair I found. Winnipeg has so much character, but it really needs something to lift it up. I want Winnipeg to be a great place, it's the center of the country, one of the most historical cities and a cultural heavyweight, but it just felt depressed to me.

Getting back to the city itself, while its not Montréal or Toronto, there are several neighbourhood that are highly dense and vibrant, including The Exchange which is a great place to get out and explore, and has many interesting shops and restaurants. I feel there are moves to make it a more cohevise and connected neighbourhood, as there are currently many project in development to add hundreds of housing untis to the area and downtown in general. Yes, there are clearly issues, but your perception of the city is somewhat misguided. Not meaning to rag on you, but I'm just trying to provide some context to the conversation.

Everywhere is dealing with the same problems, I was actually impressed how few meth heads and fentanyl zombies I just saw in my recent trip to Toronto and Montreal. There were some sketchy people, but nothing like I see in Calgary. The point I was making wasn't in relation to the drug crisis in Winnipeg, I just meant the city in general. Winnipeg seems to be a city looking to reinvent itself, but hasn't found a way to do that for a long time. Do you have some statistics to back up your claim that other places are shipping people to Winnipeg? cause I definitely don't buy that. The problem is bad everywhere in Western Canada as you alluded to. I definitely buy the argument that there is a disproportionate amount of people from up north though, Edmonton has the same problem, so does Prince George and a lot of cities on what we can call the northern frontier.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

I'll throw in my predications for the main metros.

Calgary +30,000
Edmonton +28,000
Montreal +25,000
Ottawa +22,000
Vancouver +20,000
Toronto +15,000
Winnipeg +10,000
St Catherines +5,000
Quebec +5,000
Hamilton +5,000
Saskatoon +5,000
Halifax +5,00
Victoria +4,000
Regina +3,000
Kitchener Waterloo +3,000
London +2,000

A report to be presented to the Region of Waterloo tomorrow puts the population increase in 2025 at under 100 (!). This despite the Region adding 3,700 new households, including 3,000 in Kitchener alone. The drop in international students would account for much of this turnaround.