NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[BK1985]

Can’t wait to see the updated design. They better not F it up. The last thing I want to see is some faux neoclassical Vegas-esque mishmash. If they retain the elements of the older design then I think we are on the right path. In regards to MSG staying put, this is literally what I’ve been saying since the beginning. Moving MSG is not really feasible at this point it would take much too much capital, much too many government agencies, companies, and various community interest groups.

[BuildThemTaller]

Yeah, he's big mad.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller

Yeah, he's big mad.

Anyone who loves NY would be dismayed about an utterly absurd decision that apparently was dictated by Dolan.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BK1985

Can’t wait to see the updated design.

I doubt the final design varies much from what we've seen. As described, it has every major element of the long-publicized renderings.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I doubt the final design varies much from what we've seen. As described, it has every major element of the long-publicized renderings.

I suspect that the "design" has been dramatically watered down based on the press release. For example, there's no mention about the mid-block hall where the taxi station/truck loading area is. There also was no mention about demolishing the theatre.

NY can thwart this disastrous plan.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

I suspect that the "design" has been dramatically watered down based on the press release. For example, there's no mention about the mid-block hall where the taxi station/truck loading area is. There also was no mention about demolishing the theatre.

Multiple sources have confirmed the theatre is being removed.

The theatre sits directly underneath the Eighth Ave. side. There's no way to build that grand entrance w/o removing the theatre. There's no room.

And the Halmar plan has always included the mid-block hall. There's no reason to think it wouldn't be built. Why would they decide to keep that space empty and closed off when the whole point is greater space, light and circulation?

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Multiple sources have confirmed the theatre is being removed.

The theatre sits directly underneath the Eighth Ave. side. There's no way to build that grand entrance w/o removing the theatre. There's no room.

And the Halmar plan has always included the mid-block hall. There's no reason to think it wouldn't be built. Why would they decide to keep that space empty and closed off when the whole point is greater space, light and circulation?

The sources have been speculating. The government’s release mentioned none of that.

Penn South is not happening, and this disastrous plan not only leaves a hideous arena and an abysmal station in a vile, dystopian area, but it does not address track congestion at all. It also guarantees that we’ll have an empty lot at 15 Penn for decades.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[Crawford]

Granted, there's no transparency with any of this. But this is what Halmar officially submitted:

-Midblock train hall with 105 ft. ceiling, providing midblock light and access.

That new access leads directly into a Vornado tower (2 PP). Vornado is a partner here. What are the odds they bizarrely decide to block their office workers from their station?

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Granted, there's no transparency with any of this. But this is what Halmar officially submitted:

-Midblock train hall with 105 ft. ceiling, providing midblock light and access.

That new access leads directly into a Vornado tower (2 PP). Vornado is a partner here. What are the odds they bizarrely decide to block their office workers from their station?

I hope that you're right, and that this abysmal development is rendered somewhat less disastrous. However, I suspect that there has been a lot of cost cutting.

It's one thing to have an ugly station and a terrible arena in an eternally dilapidated and disgusting area, but I cannot believe that nothing will ever be done to address track congestion in this eternal hell hole.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[mfastx]

Originally Posted by NYguy

- As far as Penn South goes, that was always a separate project from the rebuild of the current station itself. It's basically "on hold" under the current administration. But that has an expiration date, and Gateway moves forward. That increased capacity will need to go somewhere. And for the Love of God, stop it with the thru-running nonsense. The people of NJ and Long Island are automobile driven. That means, they will take a train into the city. But they will not pile on in mass numbers for a thru running train from Jersey to LI, or vice versa. That's just how it is. And in either case, the states themselves would have MUCH work to get those systems into alignment. There's neither the money, nor the desire to do so. On the other hand, some thru running is an option for the Penn South expansion, if and when they get to it.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Through running has proven successful all around the world and is the widely accepted best practice. Why would anyone want to drive through Manhattan if they don't have to?

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mfastx

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Through running has proven successful all around the world and is the widely accepted best practice. Why would anyone want to drive through Manhattan if they don't have to?

There is a certain virulent strain of NY/NJ exceptionalism that proven solutions used the world over simply won't work in the region because reasons.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by ChiND

I love NY, and I am very sad to see this poor choice, which is about as inane as starting a pointless war in Iran that is weighing down the world economy, among other things.

Well, you were wanred, REPEATEDLY. I can only offer what I think will happen based on reality, not what I wish will happen. You should have at least prepared yourself for that.

Originally Posted by mfastx

Do you have any evidence to support this claim? Through running has proven successful all around the world and is the widely accepted best practice. Why would anyone want to drive through Manhattan if they don't have to?

First of all, "around the world" is not New York. And New Jersey to Long Island is not "around the world". As I've said, people in NJ and LI are car centric. If, for some reason, somebody is going to LI from NJ, why would they prefer to take the train there? What are they going to do? Rent a car when they get there? Is the train taking them around once they get there? Manhattan is a different animal, as it's built for walking, or you can just take a dam subway around. And THAT, my friend, is why people who have a car would rather drive their own cars - even through Manhattan if need be. Which, btw, you DON'T have to do. You should know that much. It's the very reason congestion pricing is successful, and will continue to be so. People are going to drive. Manhattan is where the demand is, and will always be. That's where the focus should be. Getting people in and out of Penn Station. That's all anybody who rides the train into the City cares about.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I doubt the final design varies much from what we've seen. As described, it has every major element of the long-publicized renderings.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Granted, there's no transparency with any of this. But this is what Halmar officially submitted:

-Midblock train hall with 105 ft. ceiling, providing midblock light and access.

That's correct. I've been saying for a while now that they weren't going to do anything drastically different from what we've already seen. Those people who thought they were going to move MSG and create a park (millions of sf of air rights be damned) were delusional in the worst way. And there were still people who envisioned rebuilding the original Penn Station - the one that wasn't built to handle the traffic Penn handles today - even as 2 Penn itself was being rebuilt, and obviously not going to be torn down. But, they were foolishly given new hope when the President took over ("took over" being the point). We should all know by now that "words" don't get things done. There's a practical nature to everything, especially in New York which needs rounds of approval for even some of the smallest things. And then, there was and is the issue of time. They want to get started before the President leaves office. They don't need to create new studies and lawsuits that will drag on for years. The work that was on track, and they just needed to keep it moving.

The only significant change to what was already being planned would be the removal of the theater to create the larger entrance on 8th Avenue. The MTA had decided against that because of the added expense, and the fact that most people are entering from the North and the East (due to the nature of Midtown). We now have Hudson Yards to the West, but most people coming from that direction just go right into Moynihan, which isn't going anywhere. So the grand entrance on 8th Avenue - which will be nice - is still essentially going to be a back door. But that's fine. Anything will be better than that blank wall. And the Feds are going to pay for it.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Well, you were wanred, REPEATEDLY. I can only offer what I think will happen based on reality, not what I wish will happen. You should have at least prepared yourself for that..

There was no “warning.” One needn’t be Nostradamus or the Oracle at Delphi to predict that the cheapest option would be selected. However, I had hoped that the best option would have been selected.

I would have been elated with the Halmar plan if it included Penn South. Since it does not, Penn South will never happen, and congestion at Penn will never be addressed. This once in a lifetime opportunity has passed.

The bottom line:

1. 15 Penn will remain an empty lot for decades like Alexander’s and Rizzoli;

2. We’ll be stuck with the oldest and worst arena in sports indefinitely;

3. Penn will still be a dreary, underground Hades without light;

4. All of the low rise junk in this area that Vornado does not own will remain indefinitely, and this area will continue to be perpetually blighted; and

5. Most critically, the Capacity issue at Penn will never be resolved.

This process was almost as insane as spending $50b on Netanyahu’s war, which, among other things, is clobbering the world economy and is creating an even more hostile regime in Iran. For $25b, we could have built Penn South and Halmar.

[NYguy]

So, now we have a plan base off of this:



















It will be interesting to see how it takes shape and how construction affects circulation in and around the station, including MSG.

[ChiND]

I wonder if the renderings in the ABC story are leaked images of Halmar’s latest plan. If so, the ugliest arena in sports will be partly obscured only on Eighth Avenue.

Trump Administration pledges billions for new Penn Station

ByN.J. Burkett
Thursday, May 21, 2026 6:33PM

https://abc7ny.com/post/trump-administra...new-penn-station-built-6-years/19146225/

It could be worse since, at least, part of the MOST VILE ARENA IN THE WORLD will be obscured.

[mfastx]

Originally Posted by NYguy

First of all, "around the world" is not New York. And New Jersey to Long Island is not "around the world". As I've said, people in NJ and LI are car centric. If, for some reason, somebody is going to LI from NJ, why would they prefer to take the train there? What are they going to do? Rent a car when they get there? Is the train taking them around once they get there? Manhattan is a different animal, as it's built for walking, or you can just take a dam subway around. And THAT, my friend, is why people who have a car would rather drive their own cars - even through Manhattan if need be. Which, btw, you DON'T have to do. You should know that much. It's the very reason congestion pricing is successful, and will continue to be so. People are going to drive. Manhattan is where the demand is, and will always be. That's where the focus should be. Getting people in and out of Penn Station. That's all anybody who rides the train into the City cares about.

Even if we accept the premise that no one would ever take a train from LI to NJ (which them being "car people" is not convincing at all, there are many destinations in both areas walkable/easily accessible from the train stations), through running does not prevent anything I've bolded in your response. It doesn't take away any trips to Manhattan, it just makes the station much more operationally efficient and adds capacity/increases throughput. In fact, it would enable more service to Penn Station.

Further, if through running did exist, it would meaningfully cut travel times between NJ/LI and at least provide an option for folks that didn't exist before. There's value in, say, being able to have a one seat ride between Jamaica and Newark Airport.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by mfastx

Even if we accept the premise that no one would ever take a train from LI to NJ (which them being "car people" is not convincing at all, there are many destinations in both areas walkable/easily accessible from the train stations), through running does not prevent anything I've bolded in your response. It doesn't take away any trips to Manhattan, it just makes the station much more operationally efficient and adds capacity/increases throughput. In fact, it would enable more service to Penn Station.

Further, if through running did exist, it would meaningfully cut travel times between NJ/LI and at least provide an option for folks that didn't exist before. There's value in, say, being able to have a one seat ride between Jamaica and Newark Airport.

Also if you are buying the rolling stock to take both overhead and 3rd rail power it suddenly becomes a LOT cheaper to electrify the remaining LIRR trackage that doesn't have it. It's like 50% less to build out cat than third rail. This would dramatically improve travel times across the LIRR diesel territory for commuters even if they go no farther than Penn/GC.

[ChiND]

Delete

[Nexis4Jersey]

MSG should move to Hudson Yards..