NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Penn South is not happening since Trump clearly is not pursuing it.

I have no idea what this means. Trump will be gone in two years. Penn South has nothing to do with the Amtrak-led renovations. No one is under any illusions that Trump cares about transit.

Originally Posted by ChiND

NY State does not have $20B,

NY State is already pursing much larger projects and with its massive transit budget can obviously afford to add tracks to one of the busiest stations on earth. SAS is a much bigger, more complex endeavor. ESA was too.

Originally Posted by ChiND

and even if, arguendo, it did, it would cave to community opposition

Based on what? There is no constituency opposed to track expansion. There were many constituencies opposing PABT expansion, SAS, ESA, Hell Gate Line, and here we are. All are u/c or done.

Originally Posted by ChiND

Not only will we be eternally stuck with a lousy station

The current Penn is pretty good, with LIRR renovations and Moynihan. The Halmar plan will take it from pretty good to pretty great. Penn South will make it amazing.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I have no idea what this means. Trump will be gone in two years. Penn South has nothing to do with the Amtrak-led renovations. No one is under any illusions that Trump cares about transit.

NY State is already pursing much larger projects and with its massive transit budget can obviously afford to add tracks to one of the busiest stations on earth. SAS is a much bigger, more complex endeavor. ESA was too.

Based on what? There is no constituency opposed to track expansion. There were many constituencies opposing PABT expansion, SAS, ESA, Hell Gate Line, and here we are. All are u/c or done.

The current Penn is pretty good, with LIRR renovations and Moynihan. The Halmar plan will take it from pretty good to pretty great. Penn South will make it amazing.

I like you, Crawford, and have no interest in arguing.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

In 2023, Department of Finance (DOF) estimated the value of the MSG tax exemption
at $42.4 million. Since the property tax exemption took effect, MSG has been exempted
from paying more than $946.7 million in property taxes, as measured in 2023 dollars.

Knowing that no property taxes would be collected, the Department of Finance does not
devote extensive resources to estimating the value of the arena. IBO views DOF’s current
valuation of MSG as a conservative estimate of the foregone revenue.

https://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/an-...den-property-tax-exemption-july-2023.pdf

[ChiND]

I wonder when Sean Doofy will release the renderings of this shekel-saving joke of a project.

Anyway, this area will stay as vile and disgusting as ever.

Steve Roth has to be truly delusional if he thinks that a company is going to lease 1m sf in the proposed 15 Penn at $300/sf in this dump. This is Tartarus — not the Plaza District.


Loopnet.


Co-star


NYP

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[mrnyc]

what was the plan where they made the msg walls glass to let the light in?
if msg won’t be moved that one was a good idea.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

what was the plan where they made the msg walls glass to let the light in?
if msg won’t be moved that one was a good idea.

That plan called for THE WORST ARENA IN SPORTS to move.



https://www.6sqft.com/vishaan-chakrabart...en-as-part-of-the-penn-station-overhaul/

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[mrnyc]

^ oh thanks — i didn’t realize they removed msg for it — i thought the glass was around the back of the arena bowl seats to let light in. if they wanted to remove msg for that plan its kind of dumb to make it still resemble the arena.

[Crawford]

Vornado is the silent partner in the Halmar plan. So this will likely be built according to Vornado's plans for the Penn District, which is fine by me.

It will be great to have these new towers integrated with the station, as with Grand Central.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vornado is the silent partner in the Halmar plan. So this will likely be built according to Vornado's plans for the Penn District, which is fine by me.

It will be great to have these new towers integrated with the station, as with Grand Central.

Vornado will build two cheap boxes on 8th that will have rentals. 15 Penn will sit empty for decades like Alexander’s and Rizzoli.

This area’s eternally blighted status has been assured.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[mrnyc]

the plan is ok — i’m sure the inside will be nice, but as for looks the new port authority bus terminal blows it away for being striking.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

the plan is ok — i’m sure the inside will be nice, but as for looks the new port authority bus terminal blows it away for being striking.

It appears that the images from several years ago differ from Halmar’s current plan. We have no idea what the current plan looks like, but based on Sean Doofy’s comments, it’s dramatically scaled back from what was previously envisioned.

New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Vornado is the silent partner in the Halmar plan. So this will likely be built according to Vornado's plans for the Penn District, which is fine by me.

It will be great to have these new towers integrated with the station, as with Grand Central.

Well this plan - which is a cheaper version of the previous plan - is always what was going to get built. Moving MSG was something that was NEVER going to happen, and I grew tired of repeating it (just as those who didn't want to hear that reality grew tired of hearing it).

But now that we have those issues out of the way, we can return this thread to serious conversation.



Some points:

- Removing that blank wall wall on 8th will be an improvement in any scenario, but if the cost of purchasing the theater is what I think it is, that money would better be spent on the grander design for the east end (where the heaviest concentration of passengers actually enter and depart Penn Station). No reason to half-ass both ends. But I'm sure it will make Dolan very happy.

- Speaking of Dolan, as I've always said in the past, MSG won't be moving, but there is no reason why the exterior of MSG can't be incorporated into whatever they have planned around the perimeter. It doesn't have to look like lipstick on a pig. Apparently they are planning to do something like that, but I feel it won't go as far as it should, or can. Dolan, who built the Sphere in Vegas, shouldn't cheap out on the World's Most Famous Arena.

- As far as Penn South goes, that was always a separate project from the rebuild of the current station itself. It's basically "on hold" under the current administration. But that has an expiration date, and Gateway moves forward. That increased capacity will need to go somewhere. And for the Love of God, stop it with the thru-running nonsense. The people of NJ and Long Island are automobile driven. That means, they will take a train into the city. But they will not pile on in mass numbers for a thru running train from Jersey to LI, or vice versa. That's just how it is. And in either case, the states themselves would have MUCH work to get those systems into alignment. There's neither the money, nor the desire to do so. On the other hand, some thru running is an option for the Penn South expansion, if and when they get to it.

[NYguy]

https://nypost.com/2026/05/20/us-news/ms...-announces-8b-for-penn-station-makeover/

MSG will stay put as Trump team announces $8B for Penn Station makeover


By Haley Brown and Carl Campanile
May 20, 2026

Madison Square Garden will not be forced to relocate under a Penn Station redesign plan approved by the Trump administration and Amtrak Wednesday — with the federal government pledging $8 billion to revamp the decrepit train hub.

Halmar/Penn Transformation Partners was the “master developer” chosen to lead the overhaul of the nation’s busiest commuter rail station, US Department of Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy and the Amtrak Board of Directors said in a joint announcement.

Officials said Halmar’s construction design will be released in the coming months, with groundbreaking expected by the end of 2027.

The makeover will include:

-Constructing a grand entrance on Eighth Avenue to a new train hall.

-Replacing cramped, decrepit walkways with open, beautiful concourses.

-Expanding track capacity and adding new retail stores.

-Keeping the iconic MSG linked to the station, while making passenger experience improvements there.

Some planners argued that dramatically transforming Penn was not possible without moving MSG.

Another bidder for the project, Grand Penn Partners supported by Trump and GOP mega-donor Tom Klingenstein, had proposed moving MSG across Seventh Avenue.

But MSG owner James Dolan opposed relocating what’s called “The World’s Most Famous Arena” — home of the red hot playoff Knicks basketball team and Rangers hockey team.

Gov. Kathy Hochul welcomed the news, calling the selection of a developer “an important step” in Penn Station’s reconstruction.

“From the day I took office, I made reimagining Penn Station a priority. While Penn is a federal asset, New York spent years trying to move this project forward, only to face significant federal bureaucratic hurdles at nearly every step,” she said.

“Last year, I took my case directly to the White House to cut through red tape and secure full federal funding for delivery of this project, saving New York taxpayers over $1 billion and accelerating this long overdue transformation,” Hochul continued.

“To be successful, this project must accomplish two things: dramatically improve the experience for every rider who passes through Penn Station, from the A train to the Acela, while protecting the record performance of the LIRR and ensuring the costs are not borne by New York commuters or taxpayers,” she said. “I will accept nothing less.”

Skanska and Halmar are 50/50 development partners and 55/45 construction partners on the project

MSG leadership welcomed the planned Penn Station overhaul, which includes keeping “The Mecca” connected to the transportation hub.

“We congratulate Penn Transformation Partners on being selected to redevelop Penn Station following Amtrak’s process and look forward to working with all parties as their plan advances toward a new Penn Station,” an MSG Entertainment spokesperson said.

https://gothamist.com/news/feds-pick-des...-rebuild-wont-move-madison-square-garden

Feds pick design for Penn Station rebuild, won't move Madison Square Garden


By Ramsey Khalifeh
May 20, 2026

Amtrak officials said the plan would upgrade the exterior of Madison Square Garden with a “classical look,” add a new glass entrance on Eighth Avenue by removing the Theater at The Garden and knock out levels in the train hall’s interior to raise its ceilings.

The federal railroad said the redesign would also create opportunities for new retailers and give commuters an easier walk around the station.

In Wednesday’s announcement, Amtrak said the winning design “takes inspiration from this lost architectural gem while fitting with the major structures there currently.”

The plan would also overhaul the way trains move in and out Penn Station. Amtrak officials said the plan will expand track capacity by allowing “at least limited” NJ Transit and Long Island Rail Road trains to “through-run” instead of stopping at Penn Station and turning around. The idea has been pitched by transportation planners for decades, and officials estimate it would expand the station’s capacity by allowing trains to continue through Penn.

The cost of the project remains unclear. During a Senate hearing on Tuesday, U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy testified that the Trump administration planned to put up $8 billion for the rebuild. Since the feds took over the project from the MTA, Gov. Kathy Hochul has said New York state won’t contribute any funding for the effort.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/20/nyregion/penn-station-renovation-developer.html

Penn Station Renovation Moves Ahead as Developer Is Chosen


By Patrick McGeehan
May 20, 2026

Amtrak said on Wednesday that it had chosen a developer to remake dreary Pennsylvania Station in New York City, one day after the transportation secretary, Sean P. Duffy, said that the federal government intended to spend $8 billion on the project.

Mr. Duffy and Amtrak’s board of directors announced that they had chosen Penn Transformation Partners from among three qualified bidders as master developer of the project, which they said will transform the subterranean transit hub into a “brand-new, world-class station.”

Some architects and urban planners have called over the years for the Garden to be moved so that a more inviting station could be built. One of the competing bidders had proposed moving the Garden to a site across Seventh Avenue. That bid had been backed by Thomas Klingenstein, who was a major Republican donor in 2024.

But Amtrak made clear that the arena would be staying put.

“The new design takes inspiration from this lost architectural gem while fitting with the major structures there currently, particularly Madison Square Garden and Moynihan Train Hall,” the statement from Mr. Duffy and Amtrak said.

Penn Transformation Partners is a joint venture of two big construction companies, Halmar International and Skanska. Vornado, a real estate developer that owns several properties around Penn Station, teamed with them.

For several years, Peter E. Cipriano, a Halmar executive who was a senior adviser at the Transportation Department during Mr. Trump’s first term, had been proposing a redevelopment plan for the station. That proposal would involve removing a theater that is attached to the Eighth Avenue side of the Garden to make way for a mid-block entrance that would let natural light flow into the station’s concourses.

President Trump expressed his support last month for such a plan in an interview with The New York Post, saying, “It just makes sense.”

Mr. Trump’s remarks followed a meeting in the Oval Office with Vornado’s chairman, Steven Roth, and the chairman of Madison Square Garden, James Dolan. Mr. Roth and Mr. Trump are longtime friends and have been partners in real estate investments.

Janno Lieber, the chair of the M.T.A., said on Wednesday that his agency has not been in talks with the federal government about the project. “We haven’t seen any of it, not a single thing,” Mr. Lieber said of the proposals.

Some transit advocacy groups have been critical of a lack of transparency in the design selection process. Rachael Fauss, the senior policy adviser at Reinvent Albany, a watchdog group, said Amtrak had denied her group’s request for more information about the proposals.

“There should be nothing to hide,” Ms. Fauss said, especially in a process with so few companies.

[NYguy]

https://www.nydailynews.com/2026/05/20/penn-station-rebuild-trump-amtrak-msg-halmar/










https://nyc.urbanize.city/post/usdot-and-amtrak-name-developers-7b-penn-station-renovation

[UrbanImpact]

Meh...It's giving a little bit of Mussolini style mixed in with Lord & Taylor department store. Any improvement is worth it in the end.

[ChiND]

This is not the design. Doofy said that the new design will be revealed in a few months, and also, it does not match the press release's description re: rectangular columns on 8th Avenue. We also don't know if the facade of the UGLIEST ARENA IN SPORTS will completely covered, as shown in this old plan.

We missed the opportunity of a lifetime to transform this disgusting hell hole. Moreover, it seems that this timid revamp of the WORST ARENA IN SPORTS and the dystopian Penn Station has been dramatically scaled back. It's not even clear that $8 billion is just for the station or if it includes other projects like the Second Avenue Subway.




Nothing suggests that this mid-block entry hall will be built, as was formerly envisioned.




This filthy garbage apropos of the Cerberus is the only thing that we know won't change with the current plan. Neither George Orwell nor Dante could have envisioned a more hideous setting.


Flickr



Flickr


Loopnet

SINCE ZOHRAN AND KATHY ARE EAGER TO TAX, New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT CANNOT STOP NY FROM DOING EITHER.

[BuildThemTaller]

You mad bro?

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller

You mad bro?

I love NY, and I am very sad to see this poor choice, which is about as inane as starting a pointless war in Iran that is weighing down the world economy, among other things.

I'm amazed at the absurd claim that Dolan held the cards. He did not and still does not. NY can refuse to renew the operating permit in 2028, in which case, Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games and concerts.

Also, NY can (and should) revoke MSG's tax exemption.

THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT CANNOT STOP NY FROM DOING EITHER.

We'll also have to get used to the "Vornado trap" (i.e., an empty lot at the 15 Penn site for decades). Since no company will lease 1m sf at $300/sf for space in this vile hell hole of a neighborhood, 15 Penn will be Alexander's 2.0/Rizzoli 2.0.

[DCReid]

Well, I like the old plan and hope they keep it as they are obviously not moving MSG and it looks much nicer. I doubt there will be a new MSG until the Knicks win at least 2 NBA championships...

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Well, I like the old plan and hope they keep it as they are obviously not moving MSG and it looks much nicer. I doubt there will be a new MSG until the Knicks win at least 2 NBA championships...

If NY, for some reason, renews the permit indefinitely, there still won't be a new MSG for fifty years, if ever. After spending billions of dollars on this dystopian piece of hell, it's certainly not going to be torn down in twenty or thirty years. Further, there will be nowhere in Manhattan to put it. We are stuck with the oldest and worst arena in the NBA and NHL, a vile eyesore that crushes Penn Station.

SINCE ZOHRAN AND KATHY ARE EAGER TO TAX, New York should tax the daylights out of MSG, and it should not renew the operating permit. Dolan will have to be content with 2,500 people attending Rangers and Knicks games.

[montydawg]

After spending years commuting between Philadelphia and NY Penn, I believe the platforms at Penn are way too narrow to allow through running in any meaningful way. Through running would require departing passengers to wait on the platform as the train arrives, necessitating both arriving and departing passengers to occupy the platforms at the same time to achieve dwell time savings. Currently arriving passengers leave the platforms before departing passengers go to the platforms. They are currently very crowded and sometimes people have to walk near the tracks, which seems a little hazardous to fall in if someone lost their footing. I don’t believe through running will work with these slim platforms. Additionally, LIRR will not want any NJ Transit chaos affecting their transit lines, so keeping the systems separated seems best from a stability perspective. The new design has grown on me, I hope it does not get watered down too much