Worldwide Demographics

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Good luck finding French to be useful just about anywhere except France.

Just in Europe: Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland. Some of the richest countries in Europe. Not to mention that French skills give you many extra-points to enter the EU administration and the various international organizations located in Geneva and Lausanne, all of which pay a lot of money.

And of course French skills give you easier access to Canada as an immigrant.

But yeah, not useful at all. As if being the umpteenth immigrants in London being paid sub-standard salaries to work long hours in a pub is going to make you rich.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Just in Europe: Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland. Some of the richest countries in Europe. Not to mention that French skills give you many extra-points to enter the EU administration and the various international organizations located in Geneva and Lausanne, all of which pay a lot of money.

And of course French skills give you easier access to Canada as an immigrant.

But yeah, not useful at all. As if being the umpteenth immigrants in London being paid sub-standard salaries to work long hours in a pub is going to make you rich.

So not very useful at all except in a tiny speck of the globe. Now let's talk about where English would be useful outside of the UK......

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

So not very useful at all except in a tiny speck of the globe. Now let's talk about where English would be useful outside of the UK......

I rarely agree with Brisavoine but you're being awfully dismissive. French isn't as globally significant as English but the francophone world is much larger than you're suggesting and supporting language diversity is culturally important to our collective heritage. Keeping languages alive matters, be it French, Cree, Ukrainian, Tamil, Gan, Portuguese, etc.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I rarely agree with Brisavoine but you're being awfully dismissive. French isn't as globally significant as English but the francophone world is much larger than you're suggesting and supporting language diversity is culturally important to our collective heritage.

Forgive me if in demonstrating why a person in Eastern Europe would opt to study English over French I sound dismissive. I think it's fairly obvious why people in Eastern Europe decide to learn English, but having to say the quiet part out loud may sound offensive, I guess.

[Crawford]

Most university-bound European students are required to study/demonstrate competence in two languages, so I assume it's English + another.

The English dominance is fairly recent, I think. When my dad studied for Abitur in Germany in the early 1970's, his languages were French and Latin. French was extremely popular given his location in Rhein-Mosel area and Latin was still popular for priesthood and medical careers.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Most university-bound European students are required to study/demonstrate competence in two languages, so I assume it's English + another.

The English dominance is fairly recent, I think. When my dad studied for Abitur in Germany in the early 1970's, his languages were French and Latin. French was extremely popular given his location in Rhein-Mosel area and Latin was still popular for priesthood and medical careers.

I would assume that your father is at least 70, so yes that makes sense. He was born in the twilight of French being the language of international communication. English is now clearly the language of international communication and has been for 2 - 3 generations at minimum. There has never in the history of humanity been as language as widely spoken as English.

[New Brisavoine]

^^You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Each country in Europe uses their national language in the work place. So now that the UK is out of the EU, those kids learning English can only find jobs in Ireland and Malta, which are quite limited job markets. Even in Scandinavia or The Netherlands, for most jobs you're going to need to be able to speak more than just English. Only highest-skilled jobs there will accept candidates with only English skills (but then that's not the sort of jobs most of these kids in Eastern Europe can hope to get, since most of the emigrants from these countries don't have the high skills required).

And whether English is spoken in America or Australia is totally irrelevant, as there is no freedom of movement with America and Australia. It's not where these kids are moving.

Bottom line is, not everybody needs English, English is not going to give you any particular advantage in today's world, but mastering French, German, Swedish, Italian, etc will give you an advantage that other candidates don't have. And especially French for EU institutions and international organizations located in Switzerland and Luxembourg.

For jobs and careers in the EU, now that the UK is out, it's definitely French and German that are the two most valuable assets (knowledge of English is assumed to be a given for everybody).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^You simply have no idea what you're talking about. Each country in Europe uses their national language in the work place. So now that the UK is out of the EU, those kids learning English can only find jobs in Ireland and Malta, which are quite limited job markets. Even in Scandinavia or The Netherlands, for most jobs you're going to need to be able to speak more than just English. Only highest-skilled jobs there will accept candidates with only English skills (but then that's not the sort of jobs most of these kids in Eastern Europe can hope to get, since most of the emigrants from these countries don't have the high skills required).

And whether English is spoken in America or Australia is totally irrelevant, as there is no freedom of movement with America and Australia. It's not where these kids are moving.

Bottom line is, not everybody needs English, English is not going to give you any particular advantage in today's world, but mastering French, German, Swedish, Italian, etc will give you an advantage that other candidates don't have. And especially French for EU institutions and international organizations located in Switzerland and Luxembourg.

For jobs and careers in the EU, now that the UK is out, it's definitely French and German that are the two most valuable assets (knowledge of English is assumed to be a given for everybody).

I may know more about this than you. I've done business all over Europe and in many EU countries it is assumed that you know English if you hold management level white collar roles. This is especially true in the non-Latin language countries. In places like the Netherlands, Switzerland, and maybe even Germany, it might be more important to know English than to know the local language.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've done business all over Europe and in many EU countries it is assumed that you know English if you hold management level white collar roles.

Do you see what you write? "Management level white collar roles". That concerns a minority of the population, and certainly a small minority of these Eastern European emigrants.

Most of these guys are blue-collar. The infamous "Polish plumber".

The Polish government even joked about that cliché. "I'm staying in Poland" (now that the Polish economy is booming, is the subtext). This comes from the Bolkestein Directive. But how would you know all these intra-EU issues...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_plumber

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Do you see what you write? "Management level white collar roles". That concerns a minority of the population, and certainly a small minority of these Eastern European emigrants.

Most of these guys are blue-collar. The infamous "Polish plumber".

The Polish government even joked about that cliché. "I'm staying in Poland" (now that the Polish economy is booming, is the subtext). This comes from the Bolkestein Directive. But how would you know all these intra-EU issues...

Even for blue collar roles your options are much broader speaking English in Europe than French. There is significant English fluency in just about every major city in Europe. If you're a plumber or electrician you can get started in most European countries by knowing just English

[mousquet]

Whatever the language, I don't like that Marxist way to segment society with blue collars on one side, white collars on the other.
In a free world, there is meritocracy and social mobility.
For instance in Switzerland, 70% of the work force would start their careers as so called blue collars, then they end up better off than most Americans (not to mention the French) anyhow. There is virtually no stupid class struggle in Switzerland.
That's what you call an advanced society. In the US and France, people are too elitist because of distrust, social jealousy and related pitiful mindset.
It is really pathetic.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Whatever the language, I don't like that Marxist way to segment society with blue collars on one side, white collars on the other.
In a free world, there is meritocracy and social mobility.
For instance in Switzerland, 70% of the work force would start their careers as so called blue collars, then they end up better off than most Americans (not to mention the French) anyhow. There is virtually no stupid class struggle in Switzerland.
That's what you call an advanced society. In the US and France, people are too elitist because of distrust, social jealousy and related pitiful mindset.
It is really pathetic.

There is no stigma with being seen as a blue collar worker. If anything, there's more job security and earning potential as a plumber, mechanic or welder than some desk jockey with a college degree. Especially so once AI starts to upend the job market rendering a lot of white collar jobs obsolete.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Even for blue collar roles your options are much broader speaking English in Europe than French. There is significant English fluency in just about every major city in Europe. If you're a plumber or electrician you can get started in most European countries by knowing just English

You're not gonna work as a plumber in France if you don't speak French. I doubt it's any different in Germany.

Sorry if it comes as a shock to you, but the whole planet doesn't revolve around the English language.

[mhays]

I suspect Ihearthed is right that you don't need to know much of the local language. (Not that English is needed either.)

In the US, it's extremely common to work in the building trades with little or no English. A large percentage of the industry speaks Spanish, particularly on the non-union side. Only the client-facing folks need to know English.

Anecdotally I've heard the same thing about Europe.

[New Brisavoine]

A plumber is a "client-facing folk".

[jmecklenborg]

English took off as the international language not because of anything England did on purpose but because The United States became the most important country in the world after WWII. English started spreading to Japan and the former Japanese empire (sans mainland China) as that region transformed. Meanwhile, English grew in India after independence and English started being used in the Arab world.

The only immigrants coming to the United States who also often know French are from Africa and to a lesser extent Haiti. There are now enough of these people here (who don't speak English) that HR departments often print all materials in English, Spanish, and French.

Per Google, there are roughly 120,000 Indians living in France today. By comparison, there are roughly 2 million Indians in England and 5 million in The United States. There is plenty of reason to expect that English will continue to be a major part of India's culture and no reason to suspect that French will make inroads there or in China.

One thing to think about is that if Mao had been defeated at any point and China had become a U.S. ally against The Soviet Union starting in the 1950s, English would have spread there to a greater extent than it has, and so English would be even more dominant than it is.

[New Brisavoine]

^^What does any of this has to do with Eastern European migrations inside the UE?

About India, you're oblivious to the fact that English is in retreat in India. Yes it is learned as a foreign language, but it is less an Indian language than it used to be. The elites are now largely speaking Hindi. Political messages are now largely spread in Hindi. 30 years ago it would have been much more in English. Government websites, which in the past used to be almost only in English, are now largely in Hindi. The more India develops, the more it reasserts its native languages.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

A plumber is a "client-facing folk".

You're thinking residential plumbers. I'm thinking commercial plumbing contractors.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by mhays

I suspect Ihearthed is right that you don't need to know much of the local language. (Not that English is needed either.)

In the US, it's extremely common to work in the building trades with little or no English. A large percentage of the industry speaks Spanish, particularly on the non-union side. Only the client-facing folks need to know English.

Anecdotally I've heard the same thing about Europe.

I was thinking the same thing. Plumbers (and roofers and electricians and so on) in Los Angeles don't necessarily speak English.

[Crawford]

At least in Germany, I don't think this would work like the U.S. You wouldn't get guild membership w/o tested German fluency. And off the books work would be a lot harder in Germany. Germany has massive English cultural penetration but everyone working needs German, outside of a few digital nomads or maybe some short-term high-end expats.