Canadian Skyline Thread III

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

When it comes to the sheer quantity & height of the skyline, absolutely not. Calgary is the clear champion of cities in it's size class - and hell, of many cities several times its size.

However, if we're talking about how extensive or "big" feeling an inner city is - we can't forget about the low-growth, older eastern cities like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, or Cincinnati, which have impressively over-sized (though sadly reduced from their heyday) and highly urban pre-war inner cities.


https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F0t3fegrsmk891.jpg


https://www.gettyimages.ca/videos/baltimore-row-house


https://unsplash.com/s/photos/pittsburgh-skyline

Very good point. I overloiked those cities for sure (as people too often do).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Because most people have long considered Calgary to look much larger than it, mainly because of the overall size of the skyline. The metro area isn't even far off of 2 million while I've even heard people say it looks as large or larger than Denver which is a metro area of twice its size. And virtually no metro area of 2 million has that number of large 150+m office towers. So I'd agree that saying it's just now "starting" to look like a city that close to its actual size seems harsh. But perhaps it's true in terms of inner city residential density.

I'd agree, Calgary looks to be 5 to 6 million when compared to American cities. It's really quite impressive.

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Out of curiosity, can anyone think of a North American metro >3 million with an inner city that looks bigger/denser than Calgary's. The only ones I can think of that are even arguable are Ottawa and Portland. And I don't think the arguments are that strong.

Ottawa's height restrictions Downtown have formed a very different city. The core is very dense with dozens of blocks of 300ish foot towers, so that lack of variety and height makes it look smaller than it is, compared to Calgary.

What Ottawa has that Calgary doesn't is tower clusters well outside of Downtown.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I didn't take what Calgarian said as negative but a positive observation about the big city feel now present beyond the CBD. Perhaps Canadians should stop basing everything on how it relates to the USA, or this case, its cities? The typical US city isn't anything to aspire to in terms of urbanity, density, PT, or vibrancy.

It's a normal to compare, but surely best in class is the way to go. In the 2-3 million range, Copenhagen, Auckland, and Hamburg are far better choices.

It makes sense to compare to North American cities to each other since they're the most similar in age, geography and layout. it has nothing to do with the US beyond the fact that it has the largest population in NA and is a lot more populous than Canada. So there's a greater chance of finding a city of similar size, skyline, or other attribute to make for a relevant comparison. Comparisons almost always work better when comparing similar things (apples to apples). It has nothing to do with "best" because you need to compare places first in order to determine what the best is so that can't be the starting point.

I personally see little value in comparing skylines of cities in Canada to cities of a similar size in Europe because the European ones often don't even have highrise skylines. Same with their inner city density which looks very different too. Rather than having a dense belt of highrise residential buildings surrounding a CBD, smaller European cities often have mostly lowrise density spread over a wider area which looks very different. It feels like some people just have an allergy to including the US in any such discussions, perhaps out of frustration with the current political situation which is fair. But I think we can set that aside when just discussing different physical environments.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

What Ottawa has that Calgary doesn't is tower clusters well outside of Downtown.

Agreed. Ottawa also obviously has more landmarks (Parliament Hill, Museum of History, etc).

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I didn't take what Calgarian said as negative but a positive observation about the big city feel now present beyond the CBD. Perhaps Canadians should stop basing everything on how it relates to the USA, or this case, its cities? The typical US city isn't anything to aspire to in terms of urbanity, density, PT, or vibrancy.

It's a normal to compare, but surely best in class is the way to go. In the 2-3 million range, Copenhagen, Auckland, and Hamburg are far better choices.

Auckland is a really interesting comparator. I always sleep on it. It looks quite dense/big:

[Calgarian]

What makes a city feel big to me is the action at the ground level, and the layers of buildings and character. Calgary's downtown was always a giant 9-5 office park with little or no action after 6PM. Now there are people out late most nights, there's aways something happening, more buskers and culture on the streets and things like that. Looking at the picture in question, there was a lot more than just the vertical office culture represented, that's what I was commenting on.

Our skyline is great, but you can say Mississauga is developing a great skyline too, but up close they just have a bunch of towers clustered around a mall with little action on the street.

[LikesBikes]

Thankfully I don't think any city in Canada has that kind of highway network surrounding its downtown like Auckland appears to have done.

[G.S MTL]

not the best screenshots resolution but if you wanna watch the video here is it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvhNxWsLjuo

[jc_yyc_ca]

Calgary, from last summer, I believe.
via Surrealplaces on SSP.

[davidivivid]

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by LikesBikes

Thankfully I don't think any city in Canada has that kind of highway network surrounding its downtown like Auckland appears to have done.

I didn't even notice that but yeah, that part isn't very Canadian. But at least they recently built a new downtown commuter rail tunnel to improve the transit connection between the CBD and the rest of the city.

[someone123]

The US has particularly weak smaller metros. I think this is partly because it's such a large country with a large industrial base and you can have a metro of 1-2 million there that's basically a glorified company town or military base which may not even have a significant airport. But these metros might be the 27th largest in the country.

I have a positive impression of Calgary and it has improved a lot over the years, but it doesn't really have a great depth of character and vibrancy in its medium or higher density urban parts. Aerial photos and even street view do not capture this very well. To me it feels like a medium-sized city with an unusually large core of office towers built for the oil and gas industry, and better transit than the US but worse than Europe.

One impressive Calgary thing is that the infrastructure still works relatively well even though it has grown so quickly.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by someone123

I have a positive impression of Calgary and it has improved a lot over the years, but it doesn't really have a great depth of character and vibrancy in its medium or higher density urban parts. Aerial photos and even street view do not capture this very well. To me it feels like a medium-sized city with an unusually large core of office towers built for the oil and gas industry, and better transit than the US but worse than Europe.

One impressive Calgary thing is that the infrastructure still works relatively well even though it has grown so quickly.

An unusually large core of office buildings been the personality of Calgary's CBD over the years, but it's changing almost monthly these days with all the office conversions. There are 30 buildings either converted or in the process of being converted. 26 are getting converted to residential (4,000 units), 3 converted to hotels, and one to a university off campus site.
On top of that, there are close to 1,000 new residential builds in the CBD. The feel of the downtown business core is changing rapidly. I've noticed a big difference even in the past year.

As for the vibrancy or character of the medium or high density parts, it's subjective and I would disagree, I don't think they lack depth or vibrancy. They might have in past years, but areas like the Beltline or the medium density neighborhoods surrounding downtown are also changing rapidly. What they might have looked like even two or three years ago is significantly different today.

[Coldrsx]

A few from Edmonton.

[BlaineN]

Calgary's downtown core has changed a lot since I moved here, especially over the past few years. On SRC I've seen calculations that Calgary's downtown (CBD and Beltline) is estimated to be around 68K, up 20K since 2021. Its downtown has probably had the most rapid 'rate of change' of the major metros.

For me it feels somewhat like a teenager growing rapidly, but still needing time to settle into it's new, tall lanky body.

Originally Posted by jc_yyc_ca

An unusually large core of office buildings been the personality of Calgary's CBD over the years, but it's changing almost monthly these days with all the office conversions. There are 30 buildings either converted or in the process of being converted. 26 are getting converted to residential (4,000 units), 3 converted to hotels, and one to a university off campus site.
On top of that, there are close to 1,000 new residential builds in the CBD. The feel of the downtown business core is changing rapidly. I've noticed a big difference even in the past year.

As for the vibrancy or character of the medium or high density parts, it's subjective and I would disagree, I don't think they lack depth or vibrancy. They might have in past years, but areas like the Beltline or the medium density neighborhoods surrounding downtown are also changing rapidly. What they might have looked like even two or three years ago is significantly different today.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by someone123

I have a positive impression of Calgary and it has improved a lot over the years, but it doesn't really have a great depth of character and vibrancy in its medium or higher density urban parts. Aerial photos and even street view do not capture this very well. To me it feels like a medium-sized city with an unusually large core of office towers built for the oil and gas industry, and better transit than the US but worse than Europe.

People value different things when it comes to the character of a City, and that's fine (to be expected/encouraged). Calgary certainly lacks the history and sense of establishment/permanence of older cities. However, I think it character very much reflects the youthfulness, ambition and diversity of its new residents. Some people like that.

This will be the last bit of Calgary boosterism from me for a while (in my defence, this forum doesn't have to put up with much Calgary boosterism any more), but in addition to all of the office conversions and medium to high density residential projects already under construction in the CBD, Beltline, East Village, Chinatown, Inglewood and Kensington, there are a few "mega-projects" that have either started construction or, by all accounts, are about to start construction: Broadway on 17th (a three tower + large retail podium development at 17th Ave & 4th Street), the Beltline Block (a four tower + large retail podium development at 12th Ave & 1st St) and the Stampede Park W & JW Marriott two tower hotel/condo development at 17th Ave & Macleod Tr) that will really, in my opinion, put the excamation mark on downtown Calgary's transformation.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

Auckland is a really interesting comparator. I always sleep on it. It looks quite dense/big:

I did want to include a 'New World' city as there's a tendency to assume European urbanity isn't possible outside Europe. In the 2-3 million range I looked at Perth but Auckland is a better choice. It's denser and has more of that pedestrian focused design that's conducive to urban vibrancy big despite being the smaller of the two.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

What makes a city feel big to me is the action at the ground level, and the layers of buildings and character. Calgary's downtown was always a giant 9-5 office park with little or no action after 6PM. Now there are people out late most nights, there's aways something happening, more buskers and culture on the streets and things like that. Looking at the picture in question, there was a lot more than just the vertical office culture represented, that's what I was commenting on.

Our skyline is great, but you can say Mississauga is developing a great skyline too, but up close they just have a bunch of towers clustered around a mall with little action on the street.

This. We focus on skylines but it's really at grade that counts the most. What good are tall buildings when its windswept blocks of nothing outside? That Calgary Beltline photo was great in that it showed its a lot more than a cluster of tall buildings. It's starting to look and feel like a big city due to the pedestrian experience.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

People value different things when it comes to the character of a City, and that's fine (to be expected/encouraged). Calgary certainly lacks the history and sense of establishment/permanence of older cities. However, I think it character very much reflects the youthfulness, ambition and diversity of its new residents. Some people like that.

This will be the last bit of Calgary boosterism from me for a while (in my defence, this forum doesn't have to put up with much Calgary boosterism any more), but in addition to all of the office conversions and medium to high density residential projects already under construction in the CBD, Beltline, East Village, Chinatown, Inglewood and Kensington, there are a few "mega-projects" that have either started construction or, by all accounts, are about to start construction: Broadway on 17th (a three tower + large retail podium development at 17th Ave & 4th Street), the Beltline Block (a four tower + large retail podium development at 12th Ave & 1st St) and the Stampede Park W & JW Marriott two tower hotel/condo development at 17th Ave & Macleod Tr) that will really, in my opinion, put the excamation mark on downtown Calgary's transformation.

I’ve come to appreciate Calgary’s large amount of brutalist and mid century buildings. They are now reaching the point of becoming historical stock.

[jc_yyc_ca]

Originally Posted by Pavlov

People value different things when it comes to the character of a City, and that's fine (to be expected/encouraged). Calgary certainly lacks the history and sense of establishment/permanence of older cities. However, I think it character very much reflects the youthfulness, ambition and diversity of its new residents. Some people like that.

That's where I fall too. The vibrancy and character of downtown Calgary is different than other older cities, but it doesn't make it have less character or vibrancy, just a different style. In past years it certainly had less vibrancy and a personality that revolved around being super busy during the day and dead at night, but that has changed a lot.
I too, will stop my Calgary boosterism here, and we'll carry on

[TorontoDrew]

Looking at those Edmonton pictures, the city really could use a tower with a bit of architectural flare. It's looking extremely boxy and sterile. It's strange just how different it is from Calgary in terms of unique structures.