Halifax Transit

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

It would be interesting to see the old schedules. There used to be a train called The Atlantic along with The Ocean and it seems both went to Halifax daily, so it seems there were 2 Halifax-Moncton trains per day along with 1 for SJ. From Halifax you could also go to Yarmouth, Sydney, or the Annapolis Valley by train (I think the valley train may have ended earlier? Not sure).

In theory there's Maritime Bus and VIA today but the schedules are very minimal and VIA is expensive for what it is. I don't think a full rail network makes sense these days but a Halifax-Moncton-SJ train, maybe one day connecting to Amtrak, would be great. I don't think The Ocean serves the region very well and fundamentally it won't be great to try to put Halifax-Moncton service on part of a Halifax-Montreal train that goes via northern NB.

There’s surprisingly limited info I was able to find on the web about these trains. There may have been three routings but I don’t know. I thought one went up to Quebec via the eastern coastline track through NB going thru places like Bathurst; I thought another went through Fredericton and Woodstock before going into Quebec; and I thought there might have been a third that sent passengers through Saint John before shortcutting through Northen Maine before returning to Canada in Quebec. But I just don’t know.

[someone123]

Interestingly The Atlantic went more directly to Montreal from Saint John via Maine. That was before the era of border security so I wonder if it would have survived into the 2000s in any case.

That Halifax-Moncton-SJ route is not exactly Toronto-Montreal but it's got a pretty good population density and a lot of towns along the whole length with relatively few empty areas. Moncton-Halifax is similar and if done at the right times could also pick up commuter traffic on both ends. If the service were decent you could have commuters going from Truro into the Halifax area. Ideally it should have a handful of stops with one being the airport. HRM could then cut back or drop airport bus service. If the Halifax CN mainline is congested I wonder if it could be done on the Dartmouth side with a ferry connection.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I know that decades ago (1960s) there used to be a passenger train that went through Saint John and ended in Montreal, not sure which route it took though, without doing some research. I also recall hearing that the Ocean was rerouted to go through northern NB for political reasons, but again just anecdotal memories. I’m sure there’s info online if somebody cares to take the time to do the research. That’s not me right now.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Interestingly The Atlantic went more directly to Montreal from Saint John via Maine. That was before the era of border security so I wonder if it would have survived into the 2000s in any case.

That Halifax-Moncton-SJ route is not exactly Toronto-Montreal but it's got a pretty good population density and a lot of towns along the whole length with relatively few empty areas. Moncton-Halifax is similar and if done at the right times could also pick up commuter traffic on both ends. If the service were decent you could have commuters going from Truro into the Halifax area. Ideally it should have a handful of stops with one being the airport. HRM could then cut back or drop airport bus service. If the Halifax CN mainline is congested I wonder if it could be done on the Dartmouth side with a ferry connection.

Apparently the Ocean only runs 3 times a week so I don’t think it is much of a commuter or bus alternative. The CN main line avoids the airport, running close to old Highway #2 near Grand Lake.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Apparently the Ocean only runs 3 times a week so I don’t think it is much of a commuter or bus alternative. The CN main line avoids the airport, running close to old Highway #2 near Grand Lake.

I have wondered if the province could offer to invest in the rail infrastructure in exchange for schedule priority. They could also eventually build some parallel infrastructure which they would retain ownership of, like an airport spur line. Some rail could perhaps follow the highway.

For transportation options there's often a big payoff to having a reliable or consistent system, whereas VIA today is essentially useless for most users. I think the minimum would have to be 2 or 3 daily trains each way on Halifax-Moncton or Halifax-Truro, with timings such that they are useful for a commute or day trip (tourist, appointment, etc.). Park and ride, ridesharing, and bike/scooter rentals would complement the stations.

A really bare bones system could operate like Truro-Halifax commuter rail with inbound morning trips and outbound evening trips only.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

There’s surprisingly limited info I was able to find on the web about these trains. There may have been three routings but I don’t know. I thought one went up to Quebec via the eastern coastline track through NB going thru places like Bathurst; I thought another went through Fredericton and Woodstock before going into Quebec; and I thought there might have been a third that sent passengers through Saint John before shortcutting through Northern Maine before returning to Canada in Quebec. But I just don’t know.

There were and are three rail routes from the Maritimes to Montreal. The shortest is the CN main line from Moncton through Edmundston, 618 miles (compared to 651 miles for the more northerly route via Bathurst). It is also the best maintained, and carries virtually all CN's freight traffic. It has never been a major passenger route, however, even during the so-called 'golden age' of rail travel, since there are no significant population centres en route. I believe the only major through train on this former National Transcontinental line was CN's Cabot (trains 18 & 19) which linked Montreal and Sydney (with a connection to the Newfoundland ferries) in 1967.

After 1967, CN served this route with Budd rail diesel cars, sometimes only three times a week and with an overnight in Edmundston for those connecting to/from Montreal. VIA briefly restored daily service (without any connection to Montreal) but it was discontinued in late 1981 in the Trudeau-Pepin rail cuts. The service was restored in 1984 but slashed for good by Mulroney in 1990.

VIA mused about shifting the Ocean to the Edmundston route in 2015 but balked at the projected $50 million cost. Left unspoken was CN's almost certain opposition to having passenger trains gumming up their main line. But, the move really would be self-defeating as it would leave Riviere-du-Loup, Matapedia, Campbellton, Bathurst, Miramichi and the rest of northern NB without public transport (also Gaspe, which is projected to have its rail restoration completed by next year).

There's no doubt the Ocean and its thrice-weekly service is a shadow of the days when there were three daily full service trains (in both directions) on these tracks. The venerable Maritime Express was the first to come off, in 1964, while the Scotian survived until VIA in 1976.

The final route is the former CP line between Montreal and Saint John via Sherbrooke and northern Maine. The Atlantic came off for good in 1994 when CP (now CPKC) sold its tracks to the Irving-owned New Brunswick Southern. CPKC re-acquired the tracks between Montreal and Brownville Jct., Maine in 2020 and interchanges there with Irving to access Saint John. But VIA won't operate on a short line and there's been no serious attempt to change that, as far as I know.

As for a possible Amtrak connection, it's not inconceivable. Both CPKC and NB Southern connect with CSX in northern Maine, and on to Brunswick where Amtrak's five-times daily Downeaster terminates. CN had a daily full-service (Halifax-Boston) train on this route, the Gull, from 1930 to 1960. I haven't heard of any serious proposal to restore service here, although there has been chatter about upgrading these tracks now that CPKC is agressively marketing the Port of Saint John.

[OldDartmouthMark]

^Excellent info as always! Thanks!

The mention of the route to Boston reminds me of the train(s) that famously brought supplies and medical personnel from Boston to Halifax in the wake of the Halifax explosion. Would this have followed the same route?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by ns_kid;

As for a possible Amtrak connection, it's not inconceivable. Both CPKC and NB Southern connect with CSX in northern Maine, and on to Brunswick where Amtrak's five-times daily Downeaster terminates. CN had a daily full-service (Halifax-Boston) train on this route, the Gull, from 1930 to 1960. I haven't heard of any serious proposal to restore service here, although there has been chatter about upgrading these tracks now that CPKC is agressively marketing the Port of Saint John.

I remember reading a consultant's report about this or a similar connection a few decades ago relating to container shipments from here to the NY/NJ area. The details are fuzzy to me at this late date but I remember the gist, which was that getting past Saint John through Maine and places south of there in the USA was challenging due to meandering routes on questionably-maintained track. I wonder if that is still accurate?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

There were and are three rail routes from the Maritimes to Montreal. The shortest is the CN main line from Moncton through Edmundston, 618 miles (compared to 651 miles for the more northerly route via Bathurst). It is also the best maintained, and carries virtually all CN's freight traffic. It has never been a major passenger route, however, even during the so-called 'golden age' of rail travel, since there are no significant population centres en route. I believe the only major through train on this former National Transcontinental line was CN's Cabot (trains 18 & 19) which linked Montreal and Sydney (with a connection to the Newfoundland ferries) in 1967.

After 1967, CN served this route with Budd rail diesel cars, sometimes only three times a week and with an overnight in Edmundston for those connecting to/from Montreal. VIA briefly restored daily service (without any connection to Montreal) but it was discontinued in late 1981 in the Trudeau-Pepin rail cuts. The service was restored in 1984 but slashed for good by Mulroney in 1990.

VIA mused about shifting the Ocean to the Edmundston route in 2015 but balked at the projected $50 million cost. Left unspoken was CN's almost certain opposition to having passenger trains gumming up their main line. But, the move really would be self-defeating as it would leave Riviere-du-Loup, Matapedia, Campbellton, Bathurst, Miramichi and the rest of northern NB without public transport (also Gaspe, which is projected to have its rail restoration completed by next year).

There's no doubt the Ocean and its thrice-weekly service is a shadow of the days when there were three daily full service trains (in both directions) on these tracks. The venerable Maritime Express was the first to come off, in 1964, while the Scotian survived until VIA in 1976.

The final route is the former CP line between Montreal and Saint John via Sherbrooke and northern Maine. The Atlantic came off for good in 1994 when CP (now CPKC) sold its tracks to the Irving-owned New Brunswick Southern. CPKC re-acquired the tracks between Montreal and Brownville Jct., Maine in 2020 and interchanges there with Irving to access Saint John. But VIA won't operate on a short line and there's been no serious attempt to change that, as far as I know.

As for a possible Amtrak connection, it's not inconceivable. Both CPKC and NB Southern connect with CSX in northern Maine, and on to Brunswick where Amtrak's five-times daily Downeaster terminates. CN had a daily full-service (Halifax-Boston) train on this route, the Gull, from 1930 to 1960. I haven't heard of any serious proposal to restore service here, although there has been chatter about upgrading these tracks now that CPKC is agressively marketing the Port of Saint John.

Excellent summary.

I took the centrai NB route (CNR mainline) back in 1967 when I went to Expo 67 in Montreal with my mother and older sister. There is a very impressive trestle near Grand Falls that I vividly remember. Although it serves Grand Falls and Edmundston, you are quite right that it bypasses all the population centres along the northeast coast of NB and the western Gaspesie.

VIA really needs to come up with a plan for passenger rail service in the Maritimes. If it were up to me, I would move The Ocean to the CNR mainline and reinstitute daily service. Anything less than daily is not really a passenger service at all, and is nothing more than a tourist train. The CNR mainline is best as it is maintained as a class one rail line allowing for much higher speeds, and it i a more direct route to boot. Using the mainline would shave literally hours off the trip, and, There would be much less chance of significant delays. Service would be much more reliable and timely.

The problem with the Bathurst sub (northern NB route) is that CNR does only the minimum possible maintenance on the line as there is virtually no viable business model between Miramichi and Belledune. If it was entirely up to CNR, they would apply for route abandonment, but, as long as VIA is using it, they would not be allowed. The trackage is in such poor shape that in places The Ocean is limited to speeds as low as 30 km/hr. This is farcical.

If it were up to me, I would get VIA to purchase the Bathurst sub and take over maintenance. Even if The Ocean moved to the CNR mainline, I think a local passenger train service could still be maintained for northeastern NB. As ns_kid said, this portion of the province is poorly served by public transit and a daily return service from Campbellton, Bathurst and Miramichi to Moncton would be popular. I can guarantee you that there are people from the north that do use rail to get to Moncton for medical appointments and for shopping.

I also agree that the old Atlantic passenger route to Montreal via Saint John is not coming back. I do think that a local train from Saint John to Moncton via Sussex could make sense. This line is a well maintained CNR class one rail line capable of high speeds.

As for Amtrak, I also think this is not inconceivable. They are actually exploring the possibility of extending the service to Bangor, which is within spitting distance of CSX trackage. Port Saint John is aggressively working with NBSR and CPKC to develop class one trackage with CSX to provide a high quality rail route to the east coast of the USA and beyond. Port Saint John is very serious about this as they consider this a prime competitive advantage over Halifax in marketing their services. Halifax is limited to a single line to central Canada. Saint John could potentially have three routes (CNR mainline via Moncton, NBSR/CSX/CPKC to Montreal and NBSR/CSX/CPKC ti the US northeast and beyond.

If the US northeast route happens (and I think it will), then all it will take is lobbying to get an Amtrak service from Halifax to Boston via Moncton. Saint John and Bangor. This is not inconcievable.


Rail trestle near grand falls NB

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

^Excellent info as always! Thanks!

The mention of the route to Boston reminds me of the train(s) that famously brought supplies and medical personnel from Boston to Halifax in the wake of the Halifax explosion. Would this have followed the same route?

I haven't found specifics about the routing of the relief train -- which left Boston just 12 hours after the Explosion -- but I expect that it would have followed the same routing as the Gull, which involved four different railway companies: CN from Halifax to Saint John, CP from Saint John to Vanceboro, Me., Maine Central (MEC) to Portland, and then the Boston & Maine to Boston's old North Station. MEC got out of the passenger business in September of 1960, which was likely the prime factor in the demise of the Gull. When it came off, the Gull was the last full-service train into North Station.

The only real variable in the routing is in southern Maine. Apparently the Gull throughout its existence ran eastbound on rails through Augusta but westbound via Lewiston. Here's a B&M map from the mid-50s showing the route from Boston north to Saint John.



The former B&M and MEC are now both part of the 34,000 km CSX Transportation, headquartered in Jacksonville, Florida.

As far as I can tell, the Gull was not a stand-alone train for most, if not all, of its existence; rather, its cars were carried on other named trains. For example, in this B&M schedule from 1955, passengers left Halifax at 10:20 a.m.; eastbound, they arrived at 9:20 p.m. Both correspond to the times for CN's Scotian. The schedule allows 45 minutes in Moncton for the cars to be swapped into the Scotian's consist but, as per the footnote, first-class passengers had the option to wait another 30 minutes and transfer to the faster all-sleeper Ocean. That put them into Halifax more than three hours sooner.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Excellent summary.

I took the centrai NB route (CNR mainline) back in 1967 when I went to Expo 67 in Montreal with my mother and older sister. There is a very impressive trestle near Grand Falls that I vividly remember. Although it serves Grand Falls and Edmundston, you are quite right that it bypasses all the population centres along the northeast coast of NB and the western Gaspesie.

I'm sorry I've never had the chance to ride that route but you are right that the Little Salmon River trestle is spectacular and would be a draw for any traveller. At 1.2 km in length and 60 metres high, it's said to be the second-biggest rail bridge in Canada (after the Lethbridge Viaduct in Alberta, which is also freight-only). This video by Eric Goggin gives a great view of it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

I haven't found specifics about the routing of the relief train -- which left Boston just 12 hours after the Explosion -- but I expect that it would have followed the same routing as the Gull, which involved four different railway companies: CN from Halifax to Saint John, CP from Saint John to Vanceboro, Me., Maine Central (MEC) to Portland, and then the Boston & Maine to Boston's old North Station. MEC got out of the passenger business in September of 1960, which was likely the prime factor in the demise of the Gull. When it came off, the Gull was the last full-service train into North Station.

The only real variable in the routing is in southern Maine. Apparently the Gull throughout its existence ran eastbound on rails through Augusta but westbound via Lewiston. Here's a B&M map from the mid-50s showing the route from Boston north to Saint John.



The former B&M and MEC are now both part of the 34,000 km CSX Transportation, headquartered in Jacksonville, Florida.

As far as I can tell, the Gull was not a stand-alone train for most, if not all, of its existence; rather, its cars were carried on other named trains. For example, in this B&M schedule from 1955, passengers left Halifax at 10:20 a.m.; eastbound, they arrived at 9:20 p.m. Both correspond to the times for CN's Scotian. The schedule allows 45 minutes in Moncton for the cars to be swapped into the Scotian's consist but, as per the footnote, first-class passengers had the option to wait another 30 minutes and transfer to the faster all-sleeper Ocean. That put them into Halifax more than three hours sooner.

Fascinating. Thanks!

Couldn’t help but notice the difference between the Gull from Boston to Hfx (slightly under 14 hrs) vs Hfx to Boston (the better part of a day). There are a couple of symbols for notations along the route, which I suspect would indicate a layover or two?

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

There's a crew clearing the trees/brush off of the site of the future Wright's Cove transit terminal today. Hopefully work continues and construction of the terminal follows soon.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

There was, up until sometime in the 1990s. After that, it linked up to a bus from Moncton to SJ. I don't know what the state of it is now, though.

There used to be a commuter train on the old rails (now trails) in other parts of the province. I have an older cousin who commuted from Windsor to SMU for classes on the old rail system. This was in the late 1980s. It obviously wasn't as frequent as an actual transit system but it still worked for him, go in during the early morning and spend all day at classes and on campus then study on the train ride home in the evening.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

There used to be a commuter train on the old rails (now trails) in other parts of the province. I have an older cousin who commuted from Windsor to SMU for classes on the old rail system. This was in the late 1980s. It obviously wasn't as frequent as an actual transit system but it still worked for him, go in during the early morning and spend all day at classes and on campus then study on the train ride home in the evening.

Halifax did have a commuter train called "The Suburban" although I haven't found much information on it. It seems to have gone back to the early 1900s, and served the current VIA route past Bedford (maybe to Windsor Junction or so?). At one time, the rail line would have been a primary way to get to places like Rockingham (MSVU, which has been there for a long time) and Bedford.

Relatively recently there were stops along the VIA route in Rockingham, Bedford, and by the West End Mall, which I believe was a streecar terminus as well.

[OldDartmouthMark]

N.S. government exploring inter-municipal transit service

The Nova Scotia government is exploring the idea of inter-municipal transit service.
A request for information was issued Wednesday to gauge interest and the capability of potential service providers to operate a transit service between rural communities within 100 kilometres of Halifax and key destinations in Halifax Regional Municipality.
A news release from the government said a service would offer "regular, dependable schedules and routes suitable for daily commuting."
“When developing the Regional Transportation Plan, we heard loud and clear across citizen and community engagement sessions that this kind of regional public transit service is needed,” Public Works Minister Fred Tilley said in the release.
The request for information is intended to identify prospective service providers and "issues, opportunities and challenges" anticipated by potential providers.
The government release said the service would "ideally connect to existing fixed-route services run by municipalities, with reasonably-priced fares."
The deadline for submissions is May 20.

[someone123]

I'm a bit worried that this inter-municipal service will be of very low value but allows the province to both pander to its more rural base and technically tick the box of doing something about transit in or around the city.

Transit demand is hugely slanted toward the urban core. That doesn't mean that people living farther out shouldn't get anything, but viable services may be limited, and services to outlying areas are maybe 10% of the overall picture.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm a bit worried that this inter-municipal service will be of very low value but allows the province to both pander to its more rural base and technically tick the box of doing something about transit in or around the city.

Transit demand is hugely slanted toward the urban core. That doesn't mean that people living farther out shouldn't get anything, but viable services may be limited, and services to outlying areas are maybe 10% of the overall picture.

I knew that this would be the initial reaction, because it was mine. However, on second thought, if you watch traffic patterns, you will find that a lot of people commute to the city by car from communities far outside the city limits. Maybe not 100km, but easily 50km. It would be interesting to see, if half of those commuters used transit, how much better the traffic situation would be within the city, even better if combined with really good transit inside the city (which would also help motivate the rural commuters to use transit, knowing that they had great options to get around once they’re here).

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I knew that this would be the initial reaction, because it was mine. However, on second thought, if you watch traffic patterns, you will find that a lot of people commute to the city by car from communities far outside the city limits. Maybe not 100km, but easily 50km. It would be interesting to see, if half of those commuters used transit, how much better the traffic situation would be within the city, even better if combined with really good transit inside the city (which would also help motivate the rural commuters to use transit, knowing that they had great options to get around once they’re here).

It's true that a big portion of congestion in central parts of town arise from those coming in from elsewhere. The main concern I have is in how much subsidy such a regional service would require compared to urban transit services. If the province pays for it with no cost to the HRM then that addresses much of the issue, as long as the province isn't less willing to invest in urban services under the excuse that they're already investing X number of dollars in transit and therefore can't afford it.

But I actually do want to see the province create a better regional transit system. I think it's crazy that there's basically no transit option to go to places like Lunenburg and Bridgewater other than pricey tour buses. But that's more a general mobility service than a commuter service which have different scheduling which is an issue with the Metro X buses other than the airport. So I fear this is more a case of pandering to a the conservatives mostly rural base rather than a desire for something truly useful.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It would be interesting to see, if half of those commuters used transit, how much better the traffic situation would be within the city, even better if combined with really good transit inside the city (which would also help motivate the rural commuters to use transit, knowing that they had great options to get around once they’re here).

I hope they follow through on the better transit in the city part. The rural routes can use something like a bus lane in the core. But it's so rare to see a high modal share for transit in rural areas and small towns in North America. This is the 2016 Hants data:

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recen...&GeoLevel=PR&GeoCode=1208&TABID=1&type=0

They are at about 1% transit use. I think getting that to 5-10% would be very good while 25-50% would be very challenging. And the population here is low, and only a fraction do make there way into congested areas. Unfortunately the trade-offs are difficult.