Halifax Transit

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by MastClimberPro

I am ambivalent regarding the old building, so I'm not advocating to knock it down.

However, since you asked, if one considers the Forum lands, the postal sorting facility, Rona, Shoppers and the grey field/parking lot on Robie you are presented with one hell of an opportunity for a grand public/private amenity. There is so much space you could probably preserve the Forum shell, convert it into a large hall space for fairs and the like and still have enough for a stadium (CFL or Soccer - don't care personally either way), transit hub, a few ice surfaces and some tall real estate commercial stuff in the mix. Moving spectators to and from that location with its proximity to the McKay and 102 would be substantially easier than anything down town.

Haven't crunched the numbers on the actual space available or what would fit but the "clean slate" prompt got me all excited.

If only several of those properties were not privately owned…

One can only imagine the entertaining antics of our civic leaders if an opportunity like this were ever to surface. The virtue signaling and bowing down to special interests and whattaboutism would be absolutely breathtaking.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I think that there exists a bit of a myth that all or most historic buildings in Europe are as they were originally built. The example below is in the Canary Islands but I believe facades are ubiquitous throughout Europe.

You are correct and there is often a "ship of Theseus" quality to older buildings. However, in Halifax, there have been a lot of failed attempts at historic recreations, and the process often doesn't specify materials or quality of finishes. If it's going to be a faux brick box roughly in the shape of the Forum there's almost no point.

But I am skeptical that saving the brick facade and unbricking the old windows or removing and replacing the ugly cinder block and metal additions should be some kind of huge public works conundrum in a city with a 25 billion dollar GDP or whatever it is. I think the real reasons are lack of leadership and poor quality governance. Nobody is really championing priorities and getting the citizenry on board, the city's in constant fake crisis mode, the bureaucracy is not efficient, etc. I don't think it's due to a lack of local capacity to do this work as many private developers and institutions do excellent projects in the city.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I recall seeing a photo of a stone church in Germany that had been bombed in WWII. It had been rebuilt using both new and original materials, and other than that fact that the old stone was much darker than the new, you would not have known it had been destroyed.

Edit: Did a quick search, and I believe this is the one I was remembering:
https://www.dw.com/en/the-history-of-dresdens-frauenkirche/a-37525301

Not that we’re talking about anything approaching this scope in Halifax, but it shows what can be done if there’s a will.

[Keith P.]

The problem is, if you do something like that to the Forum, it still ends up looking like the Forum. I know people love to fawn over Andrew Cobb designs, but I think this one put him in over his depth. I would have no problem with a modern design with lots of glass. They could even make it look like the renovated Montreal Forum. I always loved those hockey stick escalators behind glass.

[IMG][/IMG]

[OldDartmouthMark]

Sure, it’s subjective, and I can appreciate that. I happen to like the Forum design and therefore would like to see it saved.

I have never been much for “name” designs, I only look at the work. I am aware of Cobb’s designs and his story, but don’t think that is the reason that it should be saved. The structure itself is a prominent enough piece of Halifax that I would think people would want to keep it around. I am often astonished, though, that many people here seem to have little sentimentality for such things. Maybe it’s just a spillover of the attitude that things are always better in other places, that I have heard time and again.

I wouldn’t think it appropriate to put a replica of the Montreal Forum here, even if it were possible, as we are not Montreal. It is a fun thought, though, but for my money I would prefer the old Maple Leaf Gardens. Really, though, IMHO it’s either do something with existing, or create something all new.

And maybe restore some fishbowl buses for a narrated run through the neighbourhood pointing out some local landmarks (transit tie-in).

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

You are correct and there is often a "ship of Theseus" quality to older buildings. However, in Halifax, there have been a lot of failed attempts at historic recreations, and the process often doesn't specify materials or quality of finishes. If it's going to be a faux brick box roughly in the shape of the Forum there's almost no point.

For me that ship of theseus quality is one of the most valuable aspects of historical buildings because it's what imparts a sense of timeless character on them. A sense that there's something special there that you can't just build from scratch. Those years impart a spontaneous quality and texture as a sort of patina that would not have been present when the building was new. Many such buildings wouldn't have been that remarkable when they were brand new so it's the years that the building has "lived" in its context and the way those years can be discerned aesthetically that's most worth preserving. To me that's kind of an essential part of preserving history. If you just roll something back to how it looked decades or centuries ago, you're losing decades or centuries worth of history in the process. The history in a historic building isn't just based on the moment it was first built when it wasn't historic.

Of course, there still has to be pragmatic considerations in that you don't want to preserve a useless ruin so some modification is often necessary. It still has to serve a productive purpose so it's always a balancing act.

[Keith P.]

The aspect with the existing Forum that many replica fans seem to miss entirely is that it is not a place that was particularly beloved even in its heyday. The nickname alone, the "Windsor Street Barn", indicates as much. People who went there during the winter always complained about the cold and drafts, and the amenities like washrooms and seating were generally awful. Don't forget the support posts that obstructed views - would those features also be preserved? I thought we had moved beyond that mindset.

Then of course you get to the question of replica architecture. I regularly decry more recent faux-historic buildings that DT Haifax was saddled with in the dark days of development 20 or so years ago that required fake cornices made out of foam or fake stonework made from concrete to get approval from our Council of the day. I thought we had moved past such things as a city. Here, we have a building that few liked even 50 years ago that was not a particularly good-looking building even when it was relatively new, yet some want to re-create it. It makes little sense. I'm tempted to say that only HRM would be so out of step with current trends to still be doing such things that generally fell into disfavor a couple of decades ago. Save the money that it would cost to do that, and since HRM apparently has lots of cash laying around that would let it do such things, spend it on a good new design with quality features and amenities.

[OldDartmouthMark]

My bad, I was under the impression that they were going to attempt to save the exterior of the building, but the CBC article states that they are going to tear it down and ‘rebuild’ it, with all the trendy stuff that council prides themselves on. A previous Halifax document that I was familiar with had led me to believe there was going to be some aspect of restoration of the existing structure, which I would support.

I don’t have confidence that a complete teardown and new ‘replica’ build has much chance of ending well, in Halifax, so I have reverted to what has become my typical disappointment and lack of interest in whatever is being done. I should have read more carefully before I commented, and should have not allowed myself to get my hopes up that finally someone has some interest in preserving heritage buildings in this god forsaken place.

My apologies to all.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

For me that ship of theseus quality is one of the most valuable aspects of historical buildings because it's what imparts a sense of timeless character on them. A sense that there's something special there that you can't just build from scratch. Those years impart a spontaneous quality and texture as a sort of patina that would not have been present when the building was new. Many such buildings wouldn't have been that remarkable when they were brand new so it's the years that the building has "lived" in its context and the way those years can be discerned aesthetically that's most worth preserving. To me that's kind of an essential part of preserving history. If you just roll something back to how it looked decades or centuries ago, you're losing decades or centuries worth of history in the process. The history in a historic building isn't just based on the moment it was first built when it wasn't historic.

Of course, there still has to be pragmatic considerations in that you don't want to preserve a useless ruin so some modification is often necessary. It still has to serve a productive purpose so it's always a balancing act.

Well articulated. I am on board with this viewpoint.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My bad, I was under the impression that they were going to attempt to save the exterior of the building, but the CBC article states that they are going to tear it down and ‘rebuild’ it, with all the trendy stuff that council prides themselves on. A previous Halifax document that I was familiar with had led me to believe there was going to be some aspect of restoration of the existing structure, which I would support.

I don’t have confidence that a complete teardown and new ‘replica’ build has much chance of ending well, in Halifax, so I have reverted to what has become my typical disappointment and lack of interest in whatever is being done. I should have read more carefully before I commented, and should have not allowed myself to get my hopes up that finally someone has some interest in preserving heritage buildings in this god forsaken place.

My apologies to all.

It still could end up being better than nothing i suppose. But yeah it is disappointing.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

A couple of pics from Greece.

PXL_20260308_091233756 by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


PXL_20260308_091156719 by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr


Dare to dream eh? Wouldn't a simple build similar to this be an awesome addition to our train station at the end of the rail cut? Arrive/depart downtown in a sheltered environment and transfer to a streetcar loop serving downtown. Put another (drive thru type) at Mumford or adjacent to Africville or Windsor St. Exchange or Mumford for transfer to north and west end street cars.

[HfxGuy]

I just posted this in another thread, but its more applicable here. I think there's a great opportunity with the new 101-102 connector to enable LRT from sackville, through Sandy Lake via the new connector, west bedford down Larry Uteck blvd, and onto the 102 and into the city from there. Grade is all relatively flat, and would serve an enormous and growing population.

[HfxGuy]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

A couple of pics from Greece.


Dare to dream eh? Wouldn't a simple build similar to this be an awesome addition to our train station at the end of the rail cut? Arrive/depart downtown in a sheltered environment and transfer to a streetcar loop serving downtown. Put another (drive thru type) at Mumford or adjacent to Africville or Windsor St. Exchange or Mumford for transfer to north and west end street cars.

Would love to see street cars return to the peninsula. It would make too much sense. There's an old diagram of the tram routes from 1927.. Only if we could have that back.

[StatelyElms]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

A couple of pics from Greece.

Dare to dream eh? Wouldn't a simple build similar to this be an awesome addition to our train station at the end of the rail cut? Arrive/depart downtown in a sheltered environment and transfer to a streetcar loop serving downtown. Put another (drive thru type) at Mumford or adjacent to Africville or Windsor St. Exchange or Mumford for transfer to north and west end street cars.

Certainly a wonderful concept! Need more service to the train station, first, I'd imagine. But it is quite nice.

I'll say it 'til the day I die, but I feel a train between Saint John and Halifax would do wonders for the Maritimes' urban centres.

Originally Posted by HfxGuy

Would love to see street cars return to the peninsula. It would make too much sense. There's an old diagram of the tram routes from 1927.. Only if we could have that back.

Here's another map I've had laying around in my bookmarks for ages! Seems more complete.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by StatelyElms

I'll say it 'til the day I die, but I feel a train between Saint John and Halifax would do wonders for the Maritimes' urban centres.

There was, up until sometime in the 1990s. After that, it linked up to a bus from Moncton to SJ. I don't know what the state of it is now, though.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

There was, up until sometime in the 1990s. After that, it linked up to a bus from Moncton to SJ. I don't know what the state of it is now, though.

It would be interesting to see the old schedules. There used to be a train called The Atlantic along with The Ocean and it seems both went to Halifax daily, so it seems there were 2 Halifax-Moncton trains per day along with 1 for SJ. From Halifax you could also go to Yarmouth, Sydney, or the Annapolis Valley by train (I think the valley train may have ended earlier? Not sure).

In theory there's Maritime Bus and VIA today but the schedules are very minimal and VIA is expensive for what it is. I don't think a full rail network makes sense these days but a Halifax-Moncton-SJ train, maybe one day connecting to Amtrak, would be great. I don't think The Ocean serves the region very well and fundamentally it won't be great to try to put Halifax-Moncton service on part of a Halifax-Montreal train that goes via northern NB.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I really feel that they are missing the point of rail travel a little by focusing on the longer routes while leaving off the shorter ones, especially in the Maritimes.

For example, the SJ route was a good one because flying, although quicker, was much more expensive (in multiples) than the train, plus by the time you went through all the security protocols (arriving early, going thru security, baggage and item limitations, etc) for something like a half hour flight, and then having to get from the airport to the city in SJ, flying wasn’t attractive at all. Driving would be a little quicker and cheaper, but even then it was somewhat of a slog. The train was great because you could relax and watch the scenery go by, get a snack, etc., and you would arrive in the middle of the city.

For longer trips like Halifax to Montreal, IIRC it’s an overnight trip and the time on the train becomes long enough that flying is much more attractive.

[someone123]

Well, I suspect it's the usual dynamic where VIA is Montreal based (like CN), they have a mandate for "coast to coast" service, they have or had a bunch of specific political goals (like putting the trains through certain rural ridings around eastern QC and northern NB that add hours onto the trip), and the current minimal service is more about ticking all those boxes rather than providing a useful service from the perspective of Maritimers.

Occasionally I see somebody rant about how The Ocean is subsidized and is another case of Ottawa forking over buckets of cash for the drunk unemployed cod fishermen. I explain that the train service is really not useful to Maritimers anyway as sitting on a train for 20 hours to go to Montreal is not practical but it tends not to register.

I think that if there is to be good public transportation in the Maritimes it has to be run by the municipalities and NS/NB/PEI. It can't be a Quebec or Ontario based company running it or a federal initiative with no local decision making. But the CN ownership of the main rail line is a big impediment.

[Keith P.]

Well, long distance rail in both Canada and the US is an experiential product more than a way of getting to a destination. If you’re going to/from Halifax to Montreal or points west, rail is a very lengthy and often unpleasant way to go. Parts of the US are as bad or worse with Amtrak. What I’ve come to realize is that fast rail is great for commuting and shorter trips, but if you aren’t starting from scratch and have to use existing rail infrastructure then you are going to be stuck in the 1950s a lot of the time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Well, long distance rail in both Canada and the US is an experiential product more than a way of getting to a destination.

Outside of the Toronto-Montreal corridor, the main VIA trains are basically tourist trains. They take so long and are so expensive they seem to be for wealthy retirees and the like. I can't really imagine taking a week off work to sit on a train, nor would I want a still expensive but uncomfortable multi-day low-end ticket that gives you a chair to sit in and little else. There's nothing wrong with a tourist train but we shouldn't pretend it's a passenger rail service for getting from city A to city B.

There are also some towns with only rail access like Churchill, Manitoba, but I don't think this is true for any towns along the VIA route in the Maritimes.