Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[Lexus]

And yet, we already have rapid transit that has been operational for 17 years. Current capacity can be increased by adding trainsets and increasing service frequency—and higher frequency means better service for customers.
Once that capacity is maxed out, there is also the option to extend all platforms to 50 metres to accommodate three‑car trains, which would result in an immediate 33% increase in capacity. By the time we reach the stage where platform expansions are required, the existing trains will likely be due for replacement anyway, and new three‑car trainsets would be ordered.
I would also speculate that escalators would be added at that stage as well. All things considered, it’s actually a pretty solid long‑term setup.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And yet they keep pushing TOD along its route when they know it cannot easily be expanded. I was thinking of how cheap-ass it seems now when I rode to Yaletown recently (1st time in years) and you can see how crowded it was and how they cheaped out on escalators (at every station).

I invite you to visit Royal Oak Station. It's been a dead zone (except when kids are travelling to / from the nearby schools) since opening day. That's why it still only has a massive staircase and an elevator that moves in slow motion (and no escalator).

So far the towers north of Imperial have been close to Nelson, so have been pretty much as close to Metrotown Station (which also has bus service while Royal Oak has almost none). Now a couple towers have been proposed for right near Royal Oak Station.

The station will need work but what can be done? Hopefully the elevator will be replaced after the ones at Edmonds are completed (happening now). I don't know how they'd add an escalator to the existing station house. The other option is to add another entrance to the other end, which is highly do-able - but will that be like Metrotown (escalators) or Patterson (stairs)?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Glow Fun City

I'm amazed at how full trains get even on evenings and weekends… wonder how long it will be until they order more?

They can always put more trains in service. They were barely using any of the new trains they ordered last time even during peak hours. There are enough trains to increase the frequency to every 2 minutes tomorrow if they feel the need to.

26min one-way + 2min layover at each end = 56min round-trip
2min frequency = 30 trains/hr = 28 trains on system for 56min trip
There are 32 trains available, so 12.5% spare even at 2min frequency

Right now at 3min peak frequency, they are only using 18 or 19 of the 32 trains.

Overall Canada Line ridership is still down from the peak in 2019 when they ordered the new trains.

Originally Posted by Glow Fun City

The lack of stations at 16th, 33rd, and 57th is unfortunate too (especially with Heather Lands and Langara Gardens/Pearson redevlopments)

I know, you can see it in some of the stations… given that those interior finishes were probably small in comparison with the excavation and concrete, it's bizarre that they wouldn't have done it all together. Silly P3's…

57th is the only part of the line that feel fast...

But anyways, it saves operation cost if they don't finish the 10m platform right away. Less electricity, less cleaning, etc.

[Glow Fun City]

Originally Posted by nname

They can always put more trains in service. They were barely using any of the new trains they ordered last time even during peak hours. There are enough trains to increase the frequency to every 2 minutes tomorrow if they feel the need to.

26min one-way + 2min layover at each end = 56min round-trip
2min frequency = 30 trains/hr = 28 trains on system for 56min trip
There are 32 trains available, so 12.5% spare even at 2min frequency

Right now at 3min peak frequency, they are only using 18 or 19 of the 32 trains.

This is the problem with the P3… reduce frequency and squeeze passengers in more than necessary while extra trains are just sitting around, just to save a few bucks. We should definitely have 2min frequency at peak hours right now

[jollyburger]

The Canada Line Races to Capacity thread from 2010

https://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=182211&highlight=headway

[GenWhy?]

Can all these things happen no-problem within the current P3 contract? Or are we waiting for big changes post-2044 when I assume TransLink takes over?

[nname]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Can all these things happen no-problem within the current P3 contract? Or are we waiting for big changes post-2044 when I assume TransLink takes over?

I believe there is already a service plan that will utilize the full fleet when they ordered the fleet expansion, but TransLink decided it's not the time to activate yet. Instead, they reallocated mid-day service toward peak and late night. The overall service is likely the same.

Peak increase from every 3.15min to 3min
Mid-day decrease from every 3.15min to 4min
Late night increase from every 10min to 7.5min

Probably they will do when the ridership is close or surpass the 2019 peak. It is still more than 10% down in 2024, and the second half of 2025 actually had a ridership drop...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by nname

57th is the only part of the line that feel fast...

IIRC the Canada is slow on purpose to adjust for the missing 33rd/57th stations; once built, it'll speed back up.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

IIRC the Canada is slow on purpose to adjust for the missing 33rd/57th stations; once built, it'll speed back up.

So... never.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Lexus

...the option to extend all platforms to 50 metres to accommodate three‑car trains, which would result in an immediate 33% increase in capacity.

If the additional car has the same capacity as the other two cars, then that would be a 50% capacity increase. For example, going from a 2-car train with 200-person capacity to a 3-car train with 300-person capacity adds 100 people, an additional 50% of the existing capacity.

[Glow Fun City]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If the additional car has the same capacity as the other two cars, then that would be a 50% capacity increase. For example, going from a 2-car train with 200-person capacity to a 3-car train with 300-person capacity adds 100 people, an additional 50% of the existing capacity.

I think the middle car might be shorter in order for the first and last doors of the train to be still on the platform? 15m instead of 20 if I remember correctly

[greenturnedblue]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

So... never.

It would only speed up to compensate for the dwell time at the new stations, so the actual length of the trip would remain the same

[s211]

I'm curious why the Canada Line southbound of the Yaletown station slows to a crawl as it approaches the line's lowest point and then guns it uphill afterward. The northbound section doesn't do that.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by s211

I'm curious why the Canada Line southbound of the Yaletown station slows to a crawl as it approaches the line's lowest point and then guns it uphill afterward. The northbound section doesn't do that.

This is a Google AI response, so don't shoot the messenger if it's wrong...


---
The speed difference on the Canada Line between Yaletown-Roundhouse and Olympic Village is primarily due to the specific track geometry required to cross under False Creek and the technical constraints of the line's design.

Reasons for Southbound Speed Reduction
Steep Descent and Gradients: Southbound trains departing Yaletown-Roundhouse must descend significantly to pass through the bored tunnel under False Creek. To ensure safety and control, the automated SelTrac signaling system enforces lower speeds on steep downward grades.
Tight Curvatures: The transition from the downtown bored tunnels to the "cut and cover" section near Olympic Village involves curves that limit speed to prevent excessive wheel and rail wear. These curves are often restricted to lower speeds compared to the straighter approaches into Yaletown from the north.
Operational Headway: Southbound trains are often managed more strictly to maintain proper spacing (headway) before the line splits toward YVR-Airport and Richmond-Brighouse. If a train ahead is slightly delayed at the merge point, following southbound trains will automatically slow down.

Why Northbound Appears Faster
Uphill Momentum: Northbound trains are climbing toward Yaletown. The system may allow for a different power profile to maintain momentum on this ascent, making the approach feel more aggressive.
Station Layout: Yaletown-Roundhouse uses a stacked platform or split-level layout in some sections, which affects how trains enter the station from different directions. Northbound trains may have a longer, straighter run-in to the platform compared to the immediate curves encountered when heading southbound.

[jollyburger]

It's strange I tried to sync two ride along videos going each way from Olympic Village to Yaletown.

The northbound Olympic Village to Yaletown train seems to get to the start of the platform five seconds compared to the southbound train. But then they both reach the end of the platform around the same time.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

This is a Google AI response, so don't shoot the messenger if it's wrong...

I often wonder why subway projects don't optimize the tunnels for efficiency by boring deeper between stations. If the train leaves the station on a downhill gradient it gets a gravity assist, and if it approaches the next station on an uphill gradient then it reduces wear and tear on the brakes.

Seems like the Yaletown to Olympic Village dip under False Creek would be an ideal use of that principle if they have speed restrictions.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I often wonder why subway projects don't optimize the tunnels for efficiency by boring deeper between stations. If the train leaves the station on a downhill gradient it gets a gravity assist, and if it approaches the next station on an uphill gradient then it reduces wear and tear on the brakes.

Seems like the Yaletown to Olympic Village dip under False Creek would be an ideal use of that principle if they have speed restrictions.

Don't they mostly use regenerative braking?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I often wonder why subway projects don't optimize the tunnels for efficiency by boring deeper between stations. If the train leaves the station on a downhill gradient it gets a gravity assist, and if it approaches the next station on an uphill gradient then it reduces wear and tear on the brakes.

Seems like the Yaletown to Olympic Village dip under False Creek would be an ideal use of that principle if they have speed restrictions.

That's exactly what the Montreal metro has.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Don't they mostly use regenerative braking?

It doesn't appear that the Canada Line trains have regenerative braking. The Mk5 SkyTrain cars now being delivered do.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Don't they mostly use regenerative braking?

Even if they do, regen does not recoup 100% of the energy and in battery-less vehicles like these it depends on being able to dump the energy into another train being fed from the same substation that needs the power. Two trains decelerating into a station at the same time, for example, would almost certainly not get any regenerative benefit.

Gravity assist would make things that much more efficient in either case.