Halifax Transit

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

it is worth pointing out that they only have around 2/3 the gdp per capita of ns, so "we can't afford luxuries like this" arguments fall a bit flat.

I think streetcars would work well in halifax, and the roadblocks are more to do with underfunding and narrow utilitarianism than anything else. There would be a big payoff to having a more attractive, quieter, more comfortable mode of transit for backbone routes, but such things often don't register.

100%

[OldDartmouthMark]

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think streetcars would work well in Halifax, and the roadblocks are more to do with underfunding and narrow utilitarianism than anything else. There would be a big payoff to having a more attractive, quieter, more comfortable mode of transit for backbone routes, but such things often don't register.

Yet HRM found funding (i.e. more debt) yesterday to spend a minimum of $150 million and likely much more with cost overruns on a 3000-seat replica of the Halifax Forum, which sounds a lot like another Dartmouth Sportsplex in terms of seating capacity and amenities, but with a replica old-timey red-brick exterior and a large green space instead of parking or other actually useful facilities. Council's ability to make bad decisions just never ends.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I agree. It's time to throw in the towel on this one. There's gotta be a better way forward.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Yet HRM found funding (i.e. more debt) yesterday to spend a minimum of $150 million and likely much more with cost overruns on a 3000-seat replica of the Halifax Forum, which sounds a lot like another Dartmouth Sportsplex in terms of seating capacity and amenities, but with a replica old-timey red-brick exterior and a large green space instead of parking or other actually useful facilities. Council's ability to make bad decisions just never ends.

It's $126 million, and it will include parking--and honestly park space would be great around here. The nearest large park space is the Common, which is a kilometre-and-a-half away. By all accounts the heritage work will only add a few million to the cost.

Also, of course, this doesn't represent $126 million we wouldn't otherwise spend, it's the difference between that sum and whatever a cheaper option would cost. Fillmore keeps saying we can do a two-pad somewhere for $50 million based on his unnamed, unofficial conversations with developer acquaintances. I doubt that, but even if so, the facility would not include the community space and other amenities here. Also, according to the discussion at the budget committee this week, it'll cost $10 million to keep the existing Forum going for longer if a delay is taken to rescope the project or move the facility. To build comparable facilities in a comparably central location would not cost substantially less in any circumstance. We need to stop delaying and juts build this thing.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

I agree. It's time to throw in the towel on this one. There's gotta be a better way forward.

I disagree and am glad that they are moving forward with this.

[ArchAficionado]

I'm not sure if this is appropriately adjacent to the Forum discussion but I will say I lament that the city is also planning to decomission Centennial Pool with no plan for replacement. It would be wise for them to also incorporate an Olympic-Sized pool into this redevelopment to make a comprehensive sports supercenter A la sportsplex/Canada Games Center on the peninsula.

The whole "just put it in the suburbs because we need more housing in downtown" rhetoric is foolishness. The urban population also needs access to community amenties, ideally within walking/transit distance.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

I'm not sure if this is appropriately adjacent to the Forum discussion but I will say I lament that the city is also planning to decomission Centennial Pool with no plan for replacement. It would be wise for them to also incorporate an Olympic-Sized pool into this redevelopment to make a comprehensive sports supercenter A la sportsplex/Canada Games Center on the peninsula.

The whole "just put it in the suburbs because we need more housing in downtown" rhetoric is foolishness. The urban population also needs access to community amenties, ideally within walking/transit distance.

I agree with this, also. Sometimes it seems like planners can only focus on one thing at a time. We have a housing issue, so we go all in on housing but seem to forget to plan a community around it. That includes transit, recreation, arts/entertainment, etc. The Forum fits into this as well, IMHO. While people are counting the pennies on what it may or may not cost, and playing it against some suburban-style 4-pad with steel siding or whatever, they don’t consider the benefits of having an historic facility, that’s been part of Halifax’s entertainment culture for a century, as an element that improves its surroundings just by being there. Instead we oddly focus on some imaginary zero-sum game, where we can’t have a nice Forum building because we need more busses or a street reconstruction or whatever. Or, let’s just tear down the Forum or the pool building because we can put housing there… meanwhile it becomes a less-nice place to live because some of these valuable community assets have been lost, or all of the additional new population isn’t being supported with new places to do things and improve enjoyment of their neighbourhood.

And, to bring it back to thread topic, another part of community planning needs to be high quality transit, before we pack the place with density.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ArchAficionado

The whole "just put it in the suburbs because we need more housing in downtown" rhetoric is foolishness. The urban population also needs access to community amenties, ideally within walking/transit distance.

In fact the urban population is where a lot of growth is happening and so demand for these amenities is increasing. Furthermore this area generates huge increases in tax base while requiring comparatively little in new capital expenditure. The conflict is probably that council wants to reallocate the wins to other districts or the municipal government itself.

The Forum drama doesn't seem to pass the sniff test. It's a huge site of which only a small portion is historically significant in an area with tons of development potential. I don't really have a strong opinion because I haven't followed it enough, but I'd wager money the whole project and council's discussions are as convoluted and confused as the old library or ferry issue or stadium/lawn bowling/conservatory/horse club/circus/spaceport issue.

[Keith P.]

The green space jumps out as something that this site never had but that staff shoehorned in at the behest of god-knows-who. In a perfect world, sure. But you are looking at something that had to accommodate 2 ice surfaces, a flea market venue, and who knows what else. The red-brick replica architecture has to add some cost and really adds little to the quality of the project. I do agree that you need something better than the past HRM 4-pad warehouse-inspired design. I just don’t think this is it. And I’ll eat my hat if it doesn’t exceed its budget since everything HRM touches goes over budget. Surely the exhibition hall/flea market venue could go elsewhere. Maybe, y’know, to a spot that has some parking nearby? Now I hear of a need to replace the Centennial Pool because it is falling apart, quelle surprise. If so, I agree it should be replaced. Since the Dartmouth Sportsplex has a pool, hey, let’s fit one in here while we’re at it! This struck me as a case of the anti-Fillmore Council cabal thumbing their noses at him because he dared suggest that what’s been on the table might not be the best way to go.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I guess I am the only one on SSP who thinks that the old Forum building has any aesthetic or historic value (sorry for creating “drama”).

So what would people propose that would be good use of the land, of benefit to the neighbourhood, and of reasonable cost? (and related to transit, given the thread that this is in)

Clean slate. You are ripping down everything on the land and starting fresh.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess I am the only one on SSP who thinks that the old Forum building has any aesthetic or historic value (sorry for creating “drama”).

Oh I hate the idea of losing it. Stuff like that give an urban environment so much more depth, interest and texture that new stuff, special though some may be, just doesn't offer.

[Keith P.]

Unfortunately it is falling apart (lack of maintenance/repair will do that, I wonder who was responsible for that?) and it fails to meet any modern codes you care to name. It has zero amenities. I am old enough to remember being taken there when I was a tyke and all of the seating bowl was bleachers with no seat backs. Sitting there for any length of time was an ordeal. A few years later there was a Great Leap Forward and the lower section of the bowl was fitted with individual plywood seats with curved backs, what progress! People would still occasionally tumble down the concrete steps from the upper reaches of the place.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

People would still occasionally tumble down the concrete steps from the upper reaches of the place.

Had that happen to a relative in the Scotiabank Centre about 10 years ago. How far we’ve come.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Oh I hate the idea of losing it. Stuff like that give an urban environment so much more depth, interest and texture that new stuff, special though some may be, just doesn't offer.

Thanks for saying that. It’s the point I am trying to make (in the transit thread…lol). Whatever people’s ideas are for the space, losing the main Forum building would be a loss for the area.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

How many generations has it been since the Forum looked like it originally did? Its window spaces have been bricked-in and the building has been altered to the point that it looks like a mess. Why not build an 'ode to the original building as a facade attached to a less expensive building? And wouldn't it be great if it could be built adjacent to the biggest transit leap HRM has ever (almost) accomplished, the BRT route along Robie St.

The inclusion of a swimming pool is an excellent idea. Two birds, one stone.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I think that there exists a bit of a myth that all or most historic buildings in Europe are as they were originally built. The example below is in the Canary Islands but I believe facades are ubiquitous throughout Europe.


PXL_20260129_173644974.MP by A.J. Forsythe, on Flickr

[MastClimberPro]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess I am the only one on SSP who thinks that the old Forum building has any aesthetic or historic value (sorry for creating “drama”).

So what would people propose that would be good use of the land, of benefit to the neighbourhood, and of reasonable cost? (and related to transit, given the thread that this is in)

Clean slate. You are ripping down everything on the land and starting fresh.

I am ambivalent regarding the old building, so I'm not advocating to knock it down.

However, since you asked, if one considers the Forum lands, the postal sorting facility, Rona, Shoppers and the grey field/parking lot on Robie you are presented with one hell of an opportunity for a grand public/private amenity. There is so much space you could probably preserve the Forum shell, convert it into a large hall space for fairs and the like and still have enough for a stadium (CFL or Soccer - don't care personally either way), transit hub, a few ice surfaces and some tall real estate commercial stuff in the mix. Moving spectators to and from that location with its proximity to the McKay and 102 would be substantially easier than anything down town.

Haven't crunched the numbers on the actual space available or what would fit but the "clean slate" prompt got me all excited.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

How many generations has it been since the Forum looked like it originally did? Its window spaces have been bricked-in and the building has been altered to the point that it looks like a mess. Why not build an 'ode to the original building as a facade attached to a less expensive building? And wouldn't it be great if it could be built adjacent to the biggest transit leap HRM has ever (almost) accomplished, the BRT route along Robie St.

The inclusion of a swimming pool is an excellent idea. Two birds, one stone.

I’ll have to review the proposal again, but I thought that at least some iteration of it restored the exterior to its original appearance… reinstating windows and such.

Whatever happens happens. I just hope that they don’t go all Halifax over it and cheap out with something crappy but functional that the beancounters will exchange high fives over, while every other resident will be looking the other way when they pass so they don’t have to see it one more time.

And whatever it is, I hope it’s something that will benefit the people living in the area, and not just another tower with ground floor retail.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by MastClimberPro

I am ambivalent regarding the old building, so I'm not advocating to knock it down.

However, since you asked, if one considers the Forum lands, the postal sorting facility, Rona, Shoppers and the grey field/parking lot on Robie you are presented with one hell of an opportunity for a grand public/private amenity. There is so much space you could probably preserve the Forum shell, convert it into a large hall space for fairs and the like and still have enough for a stadium (CFL or Soccer - don't care personally either way), transit hub, a few ice surfaces and some tall real estate commercial stuff in the mix. Moving spectators to and from that location with its proximity to the McKay and 102 would be substantially easier than anything down town.

Haven't crunched the numbers on the actual space available or what would fit but the "clean slate" prompt got me all excited.

The possibilities would be astounding if the planets were to align such that the entire parcel of land became available at once. Halifax would probably have to have an intervention from the Province or the Feds to take on a project of that scope and have it turn out like any kind of success… but dare to dream! A stadium, Olympic sized pool, legit parkland, a restored Forum building reconfigured as an events/arts/entertainment venue, huge underground parking area (under the stadium) for sports and other events attendees with close proximity to highway access, a transit hub configured such that it could be converted to LRT when the City launches its LRT system (ha ha).

Yeah, it gets the creative juices flowing.