Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service

[Richard Eade]

Thank you for this clarification. I appreciate that you pointed out my error in a constructive, non-judgmental, way. Everyone can make mis-interpretations and errors, but I think that the vast majority of people prefer to learn from their errors if the correction is respectfully presented to them.

I did not realize that RTM was simply a subsidiary of RTG.

So, RTG is the ‘umbrella’ for two underlings? OLRT-C (which has mostly wound-up after doing the construction up to the hand-off); and RTM (which will be active and responsible for maintenance for another 20-some years)? And then RTM has hired Alstom and Hitachi to do specific maintenance work, under contract?

Have I got that correct, now?

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Thank you for this clarification. I appreciate that you pointed out my error in a constructive, non-judgmental, way. Everyone can make mis-interpretations and errors, but I think that the vast majority of people prefer to learn from their errors if the correction is respectfully presented to them.

I did not realize that RTM was simply a subsidiary of RTG.

So, RTG is the ‘umbrella’ for two underlings? OLRT-C (which has mostly wound-up after doing the construction up to the hand-off); and RTM (which will be active and responsible for maintenance for another 20-some years)? And then RTM has hired Alstom and Hitachi to do specific maintenance work, under contract?

Have I got that correct, now?

Umbrella is probably the best description. RTG/RTM have the breakdown here: https://rtg-rtm.com/en/aboutus/

They make it seem like Hitachi and Alstom are contracted directly to RTG, not RTM, but it isn't clear. Each contractor has an area they are responsible for maintenance of.

We see similar on Stage 2, where Kiewit/Vinci formed EWC to win the bid, then the work is completed by KEV, a consortium of those same companies and companies they own.

[Richard Eade]

Thanks, again. I see why I was confused. It’s like ‘your children are also your cousins, if you marry your aunt’.

[Urbanarchit]

This guy is an engineer who likes to create 3D diagrams of transit stations around the world. He has ones for Ottawa's Line 1 you can see below.

http://stations.albertguillaumes.cat/

Below is an example of the Rideau Station. I like this kind of 3D view of the station - it's reminiscent of what I see in Japan, though Japan's have more information for wayfinding. I will say, I don't like this station much. The first time I used it, I intended to exit at the William exit but only realized when I was on the Sussex Rideau Centre side that I could not go the other way and cross the concourse to exit without having to go back down onto the platforms to go up the other side.

[Johnny Kit Kat]

Can someone explain to me how Montreal built a 20 station subway, all underground, in 4 years in the 1960s for the same price, in today's dollars, that it cost to build the crappy above ground Stage 1 (Confederation Line) with only 13 crappy stations. I mean, why does it seem we are terrible at building things these days when our technology is so much better than 60 years ago?

[DarthVader_1961]

Originally Posted by Johnny Kit Kat

Can someone explain to me how Montreal built a 20 station subway, all underground, in 4 years in the 1960s for the same price, in today's dollars, that it cost to build the crappy above ground Stage 1 (Confederation Line) with only 13 crappy stations. I mean, why does it seem we are terrible at building things these days when our technology is so much better than 60 years ago?

The previous mayor wanted it fast so corners where most likely cut or rushed is my guess

Keep in mind that Montreal, has more experience building subways than Ottawa does

[ponyboycurtis]

The lack of continuous concourse at Rideau is baffling.

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The lack of continuous concourse at Rideau is baffling.

Right?

Stepped onto the wrong escalator? Oops, you’re now reaching street level a block over from where you thought you were going and in a different building. And of course the signage above the escalators isn’t visible to people exiting trains unless you’re standing directly in front of the escalator, far enough back to look up and see it — which is next to impossible under regular passenger volumes. Why they don’t put signage on the wall at the bottom of the two escalators with arrows saying <— RIDEAU CENTRE | WILLIAM ST —> is beyond me.

/rant over

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The lack of continuous concourse at Rideau is baffling.

Yes, totally.

[Edison53]

Don’t know if many noticed but in yesterday’s OCT update, they said they now have 21 working trains. That’s one more than Jan 26. At that rate, it would take more than three years to upgrade all 76 trains.

[sseguin]

This is Episode 1 of a new O-Train facts series, in which I go over 10 quick facts about Ottawa’s O-Train system.

From electric operation and top speeds to articulated train design and system layout, this is a fast overview of how the O-Train works across the entire network.

• Video Link

[Richard Eade]

Nice, fun, video, Shane. Lots of good facts that some might not have known.

PS You have a shot of the plow under the Stadler, but you didn’t mention it when talking about winter operations. I believe that it is not-standard and a unique addition for Ottawa. A plow was first added to the Talent vehicles so that they could reduce dedicated winter track clearing. It worked well, so the trains since then have also been equipped with a plow blade.

PPS Another winter operation is the ice removal from the trench walls near Carling Station. That needs to be done so that the ‘sculptures’ don’t get too big and fall onto the tracks. (This year’s bitter cold of January might have been a ‘good year’ for growing ice, I don’t know. Someone who travels the line can let us know.)

PPPS Talk of winter maintenance made me think of how it was, way-back-when. Operation during the winter months has certainly matured, compared to the ‘teething pains’ that this old Ottawa Citizen article describes. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ow-plow-mishap
Sometimes we just need to look back at where we have been to see how much better things are now. Sometimes ‘The Good Olde Days’ weren’t.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Edison53

Don’t know if many noticed but in yesterday’s OCT update, they said they now have 21 working trains. That’s one more than Jan 26. At that rate, it would take more than three years to upgrade all 76 trains.

It's probably worse than that since trains are accumulating kms as they are in operation at a rate of about 4000km per day,. So every 25 days, another train needs bearing replacement. This will get worse if the issue isn't resolved by the time the east extension opens unless a permanent fix can be found.

[sseguin]

The plan is to find monitoring methods so that the 100k KM limitation is raised or removed. Troy Charter said this much but that they were working with RTM and waiting on more documentation and details to give the city confidence on this. How long that will take, no one knows. But that's probably their biggest play as a full resolution to the issue is likely in the same realm as the previous main issue, having to do with the same components.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

It's probably worse than that since trains are accumulating kms as they are in operation at a rate of about 4000km per day,. So every 25 days, another train needs bearing replacement. This will get worse if the issue isn't resolved by the time the east extension opens unless a permanent fix can be found.

4000km is wayyyy more than in reality.

Any given train is only running up to around 40 trips end to end every day. On a 12.5km line that's only 500km a day.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Johnny Kit Kat

Can someone explain to me how Montreal built a 20 station subway, all underground, in 4 years in the 1960s for the same price, in today's dollars, that it cost to build the crappy above ground Stage 1 (Confederation Line) with only 13 crappy stations. I mean, why does it seem we are terrible at building things these days when our technology is so much better than 60 years ago?

Labour laws, lower salaries, companies looking to do a job well, not make maximum profits while cutting corners.

Ottawa's Stage 1 was mid range in terms of cost compared to other similar projects.

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

The previous mayor wanted it fast so corners where most likely cut or rushed is my guess

Keep in mind that Montreal, has more experience building subways than Ottawa does

They had no experience when they built the initial network.

The Orange Line extension in 2007 was stupid expensive. The current Blue Line extension is insanely expensive.

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The lack of continuous concourse at Rideau is baffling.

Early renderings showed walkways above the platforms that connected both concourses, with the rest open to below (tracks). As with everything, cost cutting "the cloth to fit the suit" "Chevy not Cadillac" and all.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

Right?

Stepped onto the wrong escalator? Oops, you’re now reaching street level a block over from where you thought you were going and in a different building. And of course the signage above the escalators isn’t visible to people exiting trains unless you’re standing directly in front of the escalator, far enough back to look up and see it — which is next to impossible under regular passenger volumes. Why they don’t put signage on the wall at the bottom of the two escalators with arrows saying <— RIDEAU CENTRE | WILLIAM ST —> is beyond me.

/rant over

And I'm pretty sure there's still a sign at the top of the escalator directing people to go down the up escalator. Can see it in this image:

https://www.railfans.ca/o-train/cont...?i=26-img-0874

[Richard Eade]

I understand dougvdh’s point, even if they got the numbers incorrect. They are saying that the trains that are running now will be gaining kilometreage, and will – at some point – reach the 100K km limit on one or more axles, and be forced out of service. I believe that dougvdh is worried that, given the slow rate of train return, more trains will hit the limit and be lost that trains returned – thus reducing service even further.

As OCCheetos points out, a new axle would take about 200 days of constant service before it had accumulated 100k km. Of course, none of those trains have zero km on all of their axles, so it will be less than 6.7 months before they are taken out of service.

Looking at Rail Fans Canada’s Train Tracker (Great job Shane!), for example, I see that LRV 1144 has now been removed, and LRV 1166 has been returned. (From the usage graph in the Train Tracker, LRV 1144 was used very sparingly for its last few days. LRVs 1125 and 1160 are used as little as possible, so I expect that they will be leaving soon, too.) The fact that we lost one, and gained one, means that OC Transpo still can’t run any more service than they have been.

And remember that the repair rate is only 1 or 2 AXLEs per day – not trains per day. I suspect that RTM is grabbing LRVs that only need 1 or 2 axles swapped before they work on a train that needs all 20 axles changed. That gets the most LRVs running – in the short term. However, gradually, the remaining unworked-on LRVs will have many axles that need work, so the rate of LRV return will decline.

Unfortunately, RTM (through OC Transpo) does not provide the axle kilometreage for each axle of each train – although they must know that information. Not that such information would be important to the Transit Committee, but it is of interest to arm-chair managers, like several on this forum (including me).

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Johnny Kit Kat

Can someone explain to me how Montreal built a 20 station subway, all underground, in 4 years in the 1960s for the same price, in today's dollars, that it cost to build the crappy above ground Stage 1 (Confederation Line) with only 13 crappy stations. I mean, why does it seem we are terrible at building things these days when our technology is so much better than 60 years ago?

In addition to what others have said, in Montreal, there is no sub-surface expropriation required if the surface is not substantially affected. The subways were built mostly by tunneling so that there was no surface disruption. This really lowered the cost.

Also, the station land for Montreal’s subway was bought so that stations could be made with shallow cut & cover. (This also meant that the trains climb to enter a station, thus loosing speed; and dive when leaving a station, thus picking up speed. This saves brakes and motor wear.) Each station design was given to a different architectural firm. This led to reduced cost because the firms saw it as an opportunity to get their work out in the public, not as a money-maker.

Montreal built inexpensive station head-houses on the surface, knowing that large buildings would eventually take their place. Since Montreal owned that station land, this became a great revenue tool when the property was developed. (In Ottawa, the City insists on owning everything associated with transit – which is why there is a completely separate building built into the Place de Ville podium for the Lyon Station. OC Transpo does NOT share well with others. Algonquin Station is another example of a station being completely segregated.)

And, of course, the choice of rubber tires on the trains allowed the tunnels to better follow the lay of the land, so the tunnel’s construction was less restrictive, which also saved money.

Check out The Gazette article from 2016: https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...ng-the-network

[Kitchissippi]

Construction projects before the mid-1970s were not subject to the comprehensive environmental assessments that they are today. These assessments are a huge time and money suck. Without these requirements they managed to build things so fast in the 1950s and 60s. I am hoping advancements in AI will help significantly speed up and lower the costs of these assessments in the future