NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[Crawford]

I won't say that MSG will never move, but any Penn "plan" that assumes such a move, is not a serious proposal.

And as much as I hate the current location of MSG, moving MSG does absolute zero for expanding Penn capacity, which can only be accomplished via Penn South. Penn doesn't need a cool new hall (though that would nice), it needs expanded capacity.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

This is when NYguy swoops in and reminds us all he knows better and how the moving of MSG across the street is not only never going to happen but also aparantly outlandish and preposterous and anyone suggesting it's possibility crazy or a fool.





Mmmmm. Looking juicy huh NYguy???

It seems I must, because no matter how many times I have to explain it, it doesn’t sink in. I will just list a few points, and the smart among you will figure it out.

- the moving of MSG is a city issue, and requires several approvals from the city to do so

- even if MSG were to move, it would just unlock those 4 msf of air rights to take its place

- the Feds have already told potential bidders that they will not take seriously any thing that will increase the costs

- they certainly aren’t going to pay for the Garden to move, as it serves no real purpose to do so

- Amtrak is based out of the new Moynihan train hall

- the city and states still haven’t been brought on board

- the feds are currently work blind, with actual authority laying in Penn Station itself, which I feel like I have to keep reminding people is UNDER GROUND. Whatever happens anove that is a city and state issue.

- and by the way, 2 Penn isn’t going anywhere either. The original Penn is NEVER coming back.

Figure it out.

[Crawford]

Vornado is planning a 2.5 million square foot tower there. It would probably cost minimum 2 billion just to get the site. It makes zero sense. The city, over time, would lose out on billions in tax revenue from the erased office tower.

Also, the reason MSG should move is bc it sucks in the context of Penn Station/Seventh Ave. Moving it across the street, but still on top of Penn and still fronting Seventh, does nothing on either count. In some ways it's worse, bc now you'd have a brand new arena guaranteed to be there for 50+ years minimum.

[BK1985]

ASTM for the win 😂

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BK1985

ASTM for the win ������

Who knows what will happen. The ASTM proposal looks nice, but does nothing to improve track congestion at Penn. The Grand Penn Alliance plan does with through running.

We'll know in May.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, the reason MSG should move is bc it sucks in the context of Penn Station/Seventh Ave. Moving it across the street, but still on top of Penn and still fronting Seventh, does nothing on either count. In some ways it's worse, bc now you'd have a brand new arena guaranteed to be there for 50+ years minimum.

Crawford, I usually agree with everything you say, especially in CE, but this take is just wrong. Penn Station/Herald Square is the transport epicenter of Manhattan. What holds Penn back with MSG on top is it prevents a grand train station, the kind we all have in mind, from becoming reality. Moving it across the street would retain it in a transit hub. There is no Penn Station to be on top of on the east side of 7 Av, unless you consider the throat tunnels to be part of Penn Station, the user experience. If anything the biggest potential here is not only the de-capping of Penn so it can become a grand train station again, but the potential to put the added capacity of Penn South under the new MSG in the 7/8/32/34 block instead of demolishing the entire south side of 31 St, especially as terminating tracks for service not intended to continue east (a new 31 St tunnel could be accomplished by branching redesigning the throat of the current 32 St tunnel). Trains accessing these new platforms would be accomplished by either bored tubes or cut and cover below the lower level of Penn to snake dedicated terminating trains into the new area below MSG. Essentially this would create a continuous concourse from 9 Av to 6 Av and would include a completely rejuvenated 34/Herald Sq & PATH complex, with the PATH "terminal" ideally turned into a through station by a set of tracks that turn west and provide for a extension routing back across the Hudson into Bergan County deep into the future.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Crawford, I usually agree with everything you say, especially in CE, but this take is just wrong. Penn Station/Herald Square is the transport epicenter of Manhattan. What holds Penn back with MSG on top is it prevents a grand train station, the kind we all have in mind, from becoming reality.

That's definitely not my problem with MSG. I don't care about a grand hall. That's like issue #50 for Penn.

If you just want a grand hall, you can build it on the Vornado site, the Manhattan Mall or really any site that connects to the complex. Give a developer added FAR, and they can make a big, fancy hall for LIRR, Metro North, NJT, whatever. Keep in mind that none of these three constituents are even involved in this exercise. And Amtrak (the only operator involved) already has a great hall.

The primary issue for Penn is capacity expansion. Penn South is the key to making a great station. Penn needs more tracks. MTA estimates at least 8. The secondary issue is rationalizing LIRR/NJT and future Metro North, but the feds kicked those parties out of the conversation. So I assume this is all a waste of time and more theatrics from an individual @ 1600 Penn. I don't even understand Byford's role. Fix Penn Station w/o involving any constituent party.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That's definitely not my problem with MSG. I don't care about a grand hall. That's like issue #50 for Penn.

If you just want a grand hall, you can build it on the Vornado site, the Manhattan Mall or really any site that connects to the complex. Give a developer added FAR, and they can make a big, fancy hall for LIRR, Metro North, NJT, whatever. Keep in mind that none of these three constituents are even involved in this exercise. And Amtrak (the only operator involved) already has a great hall.

The primary issue for Penn is capacity expansion. Penn South is the key to making a great station. Penn needs more tracks. MTA estimates at least 8. The secondary issue is rationalizing LIRR/NJT and future Metro North, but the feds kicked those parties out of the conversation. So I assume this is all a waste of time and more theatrics from an individual @ 1600 Penn. I don't even understand Byford's role. Fix Penn Station w/o involving any constituent party.

This project is limited to the current footprint. Grand Penn’s through running plan augments train capacity. ASTM’s plan does not augment train capacity.

Byford has said for years that MSG and its oppressive columns must go in order to increase train capacity in the current footprint.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

This project is limited to the current footprint. Grand Penn’s through running plan augments train capacity. ASTM’s plan does not augment train capacity.

What thru-running? The only party involved in this exercise is Amtrak, which already does thru-running. NJT, LIRR and Metro North have zero involvement.

Originally Posted by ChiND

Byford has said for years that MSG and its oppressive columns must go in order to increase train capacity in the current footprint.

I agree. The columns need to go.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

What thru-running? The only party involved in this exercise is Amtrak, which already does thru-running. NJT, LIRR and Metro North have zero involvement.

I agree. The columns need to go.

Byford has repeatedly stated that NJT and LIRR trains should run through the station.

The columns can only go if MSG goes.

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Byford has repeatedly stated that NJT and LIRR trains should run through the station.

Byford can say whatever he wants, he cannot mandate that NJT or LIRR actually do it.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BK1985

Byford can say whatever he wants, he cannot mandate that NJT or LIRR actually do it.

We’ll know in four months.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ChiND

Byford has repeatedly stated that NJT and LIRR trains should run through the station.

To where? Where are these trains going?

And if this is true, then why aren't NJT and LIRR involved? They have zero involvement.

Originally Posted by ChiND

The columns can only go if MSG goes.

I have never heard this. Engineers can reduce the column load on the platforms w/o relocating MSG.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Crawford

To where? Where are these trains going?

And if this is true, then why aren't NJT and LIRR involved? They have zero involvement.


I have never heard this. Engineers can reduce the column load on the platforms w/o relocating MSG.

Google Byford, Penn, and through running. He had discussed this for years.

[ChiND]

This is going to be amazing if it’s selected. I love the old-fashioned glass and steel terminal and the huge waterfall in the park.




GPA

The lower level is much nicer than Grand Central’s lower level. Not to mention, the ceilings are clearly very high.


GPA


GPA

[The New York Lion]

I agree, ChiD.

The Train Daddy, if you Google him, has an amazing reputation in Toronto and London.

And I am fairly confident the GPA will be chosen because of Thomas Klingenstein's involvement, who is a major Trump ally.

[ChiND]

I agree re: Byford. I hope that GPA is selected. Not only do I find their plan far better than ASTM’s, but I think that GPA’s plan will fuel enormous levels of development in the area, starting with an icon at the Gimbel’s site.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/newyork/...tion-overhaul/

"It serves more people daily than Newark, LaGuardia and JFK combined," Byford said. "Six hundred thousand passengers go through that station every day ... and yet not only is it sort of the ugly duckling in the middle of the corridor, but it's also, it impedes us because it's so congested."

Byford said they've requested proposals from developers and are weighing all options, including through-run service linking NJ Transit and the Long Island Rail Road.

I hope that a gorgeous new MSG replaces this garbage.




Loopnet

Loopnet

[ChiND]

It looks like the Grand Penn plan envisions an ancillary station at the site of the huge garage that spans 30th and 31st Streets.




https://www.grandpenn.org/video-libr...el-z-to-church

[Nexis4Jersey]

It feels like a giant grift to me...so MSG isn't moving?

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

It feels like a giant grift to me...so MSG isn't moving?

Penn Station’s gross defects must be remedied. ASTM’s plan and GPA’s both cost a little over seven billion dollars.