Regional Amalgamation in New Brunswick

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by J81

Envision has to be the most annoying person on these threads. Constantly bombarding every thread with hypothetical BS and babbling about things dreamt up in their head they feel should be reality and dismissing anyone and everyone that disagrees with their views

LOL They're an agent of change... the thorn in the proverbial side until somebody does something. Saint John is a cool city and has so much potential. I kinda liked the Brunswick City idea. But then it would be abbreviated to BC and everyone would end up in Vancouver.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by J81

Envision has to be the most annoying person on these threads. Constantly bombarding every thread with hypothetical BS and babbling about things dreamt up in their head they feel should be reality and dismissing anyone and everyone that disagrees with their views

And you have to be one the most creative and forward thinking posters on these boards, J81! I appreciate your stellar contribution to this thread, as well as all the tremendous threads you’ve started yourself!

Though, I’m still quite confused why you and so many other New Brunswickers consider amalgamation to be such a boogeyman, when amalgamations have been commonplace across Canada. What makes NB and its municipalities so exceptional that they should continue to buck the national trend?

Here in Atlantic Canada, the most successful example of amalgamation is the Halifax Regional Municipality.

Do you really think the Saint John Region as a whole would actually be worse off if the entire CMA amalgamated as a regional municipality ala the HRM, but also went with a new name? If so… why?

PS: any preference on the new name front?

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

LOL They're an agent of change... the thorn in the proverbial side until somebody does something. Saint John is a cool city and has so much potential. I kinda liked the Brunswick City idea. But then it would be abbreviated to BC and everyone would end up in Vancouver.

Agent of change… I like that… thanks!

Btw, I have nothing against the name Saint John, I just think the confusion that exists between the two cities in Atlantic Canada with nearly identical names is a problem that negatively impacts Saint John far more than it impacts St. John’s… and for some reason it’s a problem that some people get weirdly offended over when I bring it up on here lol.

Going with a new name for a regional municipality wouldn’t need to wipe the name Saint John off the map… even in a one size fits all scenario, ala the Halifax model for amalgamation. Dartmouth is still on the map the last time I checked, right?

New Brunswick, New Brunswick gets rid of the BC confusion lol… but my preference would still be for New Cork or New Ireland… though I think Fundy or Wolastoq would be perfectly fine names too!

[irisheyes]

I'm obviously a big fan of New Cork. New Donegal perhaps too.

I don't think New Ireland is appropriate just because we should use apples to apples comparisons. Towns, cities.

Brunswick City, NB could be fair compromise that doesn't pander to one group or another and avoids exact duplication with New Brunswick, New Jersey.

But then again everything has meaning. Brunswick is a German reference— and the name was forced upon us by King George III in spite of local wishes for the province to be called New Ireland.

Personally if I had to choose it would be in the New Cork, New Donegal, or New Galway realm.

[MonctonGoldenTri]

If Moncton ever went ahead with amalgamation, the CMA would end up pulling in places like Beaubassin and the nearby communities, which would push the population into the 260,000 to 300,000 range(estimated FUA in 2026). It wouldn’t really shift anything economically, because companies already look at Moncton’s FUA and understand its strategic position in the Maritimes. That’s exactly why so many logistics and distribution operations choose to set up here.

What it would change is how the region gets talked about. People love to downplay Moncton by pretending Dieppe and Riverview don’t exist whenever it helps their argument, and they’ll even exaggerate Shediac’s distance just to pretend it isn’t part of the same integrated urban area. A unified CMA would make that kind of narrative‑twisting a lot harder, because people wouldn’t be able to shrink the region by pointing to municipal boundaries. It would finally reflect the actual scale of the area, especially when you factor in Shediac/Beaubassin’s & Co's population, which is only about a twelve‑minute commute away.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Will anyone dare to vote for Fredericton? I voted for Moncton since I figured if we start big and bold there, there will be no excuses for SJ.

I really think both regions, and Freddy, could embrace amalgamation as a force of change and development, and simply shift the rural borders of their municipalities outwards.

Moncton could follow the Peel model of amalgamation and reach over 300k nearly instantly.

I think it would also set the SJ and Freddy CMA’s up for population growth to 250k+ in the future.

[sailor734]

I've changed my mind. There is one amalgamation I could get behind. I think we should take everything in SJ north of Boar's Head Ad to University Ave to Sandy Point to Foster Thurston to Ashburn Lake to Rothesay Rd and amalgamate it with Rothesay.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I've changed my mind. There is one amalgamation I could get behind. I think we should take everything in SJ north of Boar's Head Ad to University Ave to Sandy Point to Foster Thurston to Ashburn Lake to Rothesay Rd and amalgamate it with Rothesay.

Sometimes I think you’re a proud Saint Johner who actually cares about the city and its future, Sailor, but then you’ll post something like this lol 🤦



You really want to be part of the "rich" side of the map that bad? I suspect your proposal is mainly tongue in cheek.

Expanding the “official” boundaries of what is the the Kennebecasis Valley (to include the above neighbourhoods that compose SJ’s portions of the Kennebecasis Valley) might actually happen under an amalgamation scenario, but it won’t ever happen if SJ and KV remain completely separate municipal entities… and obviously the City of Saint John would never agree to losing some of its wealthiest neighbourhoods that contribute the most per household to the city’s budget. :shrug：

Perhaps full on regional amalgamation isn’t needed to see the entire region adopt a single urban tax rate (while giving municipalities greater power to tax industry).

As much as I love the idea of creating a new, regional municipal with a new name that is comprised of the communities of Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, Grand Bay, Hampton, Musquash, and maybe even further… what would maybe be most optimal for the city would be comprehensive tax reform that allows to city to start more fairly taxing industry while remaining a separate municipality from its outlying suburbs.

However, I don’t really think we will see full, fair, and comprehensive tax reform realized that empowers municipalities to raise rates on industry.

I don’t think we will see that type of major reform until Saint John’s politically influential and economically powerful outlying suburbs are amalgamated into one big, regional municipality, or at the very least, forced to finally pay their fair share into a single, region wide budget.

Considering the minister responsible for local governance represents the riding of Quispamsis, and considering that the Holt government has still not made their plans for tax reform fully clear to the public, I’d be pretty shocked if we actually saw a region wide budgets for the Saint John, Moncton, and Fredericton regions arise from the results of Holt’s property tax reforms, but it would definitely be the right thing to do. Region wide budgets and empowering regional service commissions would still be far less shocking than the Holt government pushing for full scale regional amalgamations in Saint John, Fredericton, and Moncton… though boy, would I like to be shocked on this one.

Until major change in the Fundy Region is pushed for by government, the outlying communities of the Kennebecasis Valley and other areas will continue to enjoy having their cake while eating it too... so while I can understand the appeal of lopping off the wealthiest areas in Saint John's portion of the Kennebecasis Valley, I don't think you'll ever see Saint John's portion of KV really considered as "part of KV" until the region as a whole amalgamates, or at the very least, the communities and powers that be of the area (and province) all buy into the idea of a region wide budget and fair taxation for the Saint John Region (and other regions).

[Ire Narissis]

I think that graphic can be disproven solely by the fact that it erroneously places me in the 'rich' category.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Ire Narissis

I think that graphic can be disproven solely by the fact that it erroneously places me in the 'rich' category.

Oh it’s absolutely oversimplified and highly based on stereotypes, but it’s not entirely inaccurate… especially the suburban communities directly adjacent to the Saint John city limits.

[someone123]

I often see the large HRM map shared without context. Part of why that eastern end extends so far is that there's almost no population in the eastern 2/3 of the municipality. Amalgamation didn't add significant rural population or separate towns.

I think this question comes down to details and it's a complicated trade-off. It can be good if there are rich and poor areas and the rich areas aren't being taxed but are using urban services. It can be bad if some areas are relatively unique but lose their ability to make democratic decisions on their own. It's also sometimes good to amalgamate to handle the management of areas that have trouble supporting themselves. This is why those eastern areas went to HRM; the province didn't want to the responsible for the services nor would they want to put that in another county. Guysborough next door is already very sparse and struggles with services.

Often I think it's better to make a regional structure that handles services like transit that naturally cross municipal borders, but it's harder to justify this kind of administration for a small city.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by someone123

I often see the large HRM map shared without context. Part of why that eastern end extends so far is that there's almost no population in the eastern 2/3 of the municipality. Amalgamation didn't add significant rural population or separate towns.

I think this question comes down to details and it's a complicated trade-off. It can be good if there are rich and poor areas and the rich areas aren't being taxed but are using urban services. It can be bad if some areas are relatively unique but lose their ability to make democratic decisions on their own. It's also sometimes good to amalgamate to handle the management of areas that have trouble supporting themselves. This is why those eastern areas went to HRM; the province didn't want to the responsible for the services nor would they want to put that in another county. Guysborough next door is already very sparse and struggles with services.

Often I think it's better to make a regional structure that handles services like transit that naturally cross municipal borders, but it's harder to justify this kind of administration for a small city.

Here's the Halifax Regional Municipality versus the City of Saint John to scale. Even if just Grand Bay, Rothesay Quispamsis, and part of the Kingston Peinsula were added, it would still be a pretty small compared Regional Municipality compared to the HRM, and not some gargantuan mess.

[Ire Narissis]

I had no idea the HRM was so massive!

Speaking as a Saint John area suburbanite, the greatest fear that people here have with amalgamation is a reduction in the level of municipal services. It's often thought that the city centre will be prioritized and that the amalgamated suburbs would see a reduction in quality and frequency of things like snow clearing.

My father is salty to this day that when Grand Bay and Westfield amalgamated we lost our municipal garbage collection, which was provided by the village but was a paid service in the town. He still takes it to the landfill himself to save the cost of the pickup (though I have to wonder if he isn't paying nearly as much in tipping fees at Crane Mountain anyway).