Regional Amalgamation in New Brunswick

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Also, which CMA in NB would benefit the most from regional amalgamation?

[MonctonRad]

You're flogging a dead horse.

You also forgot option four (none of the above).

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're flogging a dead horse.

You also forgot option four (none of the above).

And you're as optimistic as ever, MonctonRad!

Spoken like a true NB baby boomer. Though, "never gunna happen" is how it's usually put.

I think the current younger generations, and future generations, will be much more open minded to the issue of regional amalgamation than their parent's and grandparent's generations have been.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

And you're as optimistic as ever, MonctonRad!

Spoken like a true NB baby boomer. Though, "never gunna happen" is how it's usually put.

I think the current younger generations, and future generations, will be much more open minded to the issue of regional amalgamation than their parent's and grandparent's generations have been.

Nothing to do with optimism. Many simply think amalgamation is a bad idea.....or at least of no importance. Other than your constant bleating I really don't see or hear any significant push for this. I seriously doubt it is even on the Holt government's radar at all.

I vote option 4. None of the above

[Bishop2047]

There was just major municipal reform in NB. I am not a baby boomer, but I understand that there will not be political will for forced amalgamation anytime soon. The dust is still settling from Jan 1, 2023.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Nothing to do with optimism. Many simply think amalgamation is a bad idea.....or at least of no importance. Other than your constant bleating I really don't see or hear any significant push for this. I seriously doubt it is even on the Holt government's radar at all.

I vote option 4. None of the above

The poll question is which CMA should be amalgamated first, not whether amalgamation is a good idea or not.

As for views on regional amalgamation, I think many of the views opposed to it have a lot to do with a lack of optimism or belief in positive change.

Maybe you don't see or hear any significant push for change in the Saint John Region, because of who you talk to. Young people in the KV suburbs today are much more open to change than their parent's and grandparent's generations.

I'm far from the only person in the province who thinks regional amalgamation is a good idea for Saint John and other CMAS.

New Brunswick recently became more urban than rural for the first in its history, and I think attitudes on amalgamation are going to continue to be more optimistic as NB's urban population grows and the rural population declines...

Moreover, it's important to note that there's more than one way to amalgamate!

A one size fits all approach like Halifax's amalgamation might not be as popular in New Brunswick as alternative approaches to amalgamation where individual towns and cities within a CMA retain their councils and distinct identities, along with a regional council where all mayors and councillors of the region vote on regional budgets and regional issues.

I could see this softer approach going over much better in the Saint John CMA than the Halifax "one size fits all" approach.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

There was just major municipal reform in NB. I am not a baby boomer, but I understand that there will not be political will for forced amalgamation anytime soon. The dust is still settling from Jan 1, 2023.

I'd hardly describe the Higgs' government municipal reforms as "major". 😅

Moreover, the Saint John CMA was left completely unchanged in those recent municipal reforms, which led to many "forced" amalgamations... I'm sure that had absolutely nothing to do with Blaine Higgs being a resident of Saint John's bedroom communities.

The dust might still be settling from Jan 1, 2023 in the Moncton and Fredericton CMAS, but there was no "dust" to settle in the Saint John CMA.

[Bishop2047]

I get that municipal reform in 2023 did not impact SJ or any of the three larger cities that much but it was MAJOR reform.

Before: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/New_Brunswick_municipalities.png

After: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c...k_by_Municipal_Status_%282023%29.svg.png

Like I said. There will not be political will at the provincial level to push for amalgamations for some time. Not a "boomer" not a this or that, just a realist.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I get that municipal reform in 2023 did not impact SJ or any of the three larger cities that much but it was MAJOR reform.

Before:


After:


Like I said. There will not be political will at the provincial level to push for amalgamations for some time. Not a "boomer" not a this or that, just a realist.

I just wouldn't call it major municipal reform unless it involved major reforms in the largest three municipalities/ CMAs... which it didn't. The main three CMAs have fundamentally different needs, and bigger issues than the mostly rural municipalities that did see major reforms, but the Higgs government's reforms were only major reforms outside the main 3 CMAS, and Holt ran on a distinctly anti Higgs platform.

The amalgamations in Fredericton and Moncton were really quite minor, while Saint John, the region that needed help and reform the most, nothing changed at all.

If the Holt wants to have a more stable and strategic growth strategy in the Saint John Region, (for the province and her party) then they will have to bring about much greater change in the region than Higgs was ever willing to pursue as premier.


As far as I know, the province proposed a Halifax style "one size fits all" amalgamation model last time, where everything would have been called Saint John, and the response was very strongly against.

However, if the government was to propose an alternative amalgamation model where the towns and cities will keep their councils, mayors, and distinct identities, but also participated in a regional council and were part of a regional municipality with a new, regional name... I don't think the KV suburbs would be so voraciously opposed.

I think there remains many reasons to be optimistic about the prospects of eventual amalgamation in the Saint John Region... despite the many, many naysayers on both sides of the city limits.

[ivegotaname]

If growing the economy is what every government wants then lower the price of goods. Make life affordable and let people buy their dream life at a price we can all afford because more purchases would be made creating higher GDP

Amalgamate all of charlotte county into one muniscipality

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I just wouldn't call it major municipal reform unless it involved major reforms in the largest three municipalities/ CMAs... which it didn't. The main three CMAs have fundamentally different needs, and bigger issues than the mostly rural municipalities that did see major reforms, but the Higgs government's reforms were only major reforms outside the main 3 CMAS, and Holt ran on a distinctly anti Higgs platform.

The amalgamations in Fredericton and Moncton were really quite minor, while Saint John, the region that needed help and reform the most, nothing changed at all.

If the Holt wants to have a more stable and strategic growth strategy in the Saint John Region, (for the province and her party) then they will have to bring about much greater change in the region than Higgs was ever willing to pursue as premier.


As far as I know, the province proposed a Halifax style "one size fits all" amalgamation model last time, where everything would have been called Saint John, and the response was very strongly against.

However, if the government was to propose an alternative amalgamation model where the towns and cities will keep their councils, mayors, and distinct identities, but also participated in a regional council and were part of a regional municipality with a new, regional name... I don't think the KV suburbs would be so voraciously opposed.

I think there remains many reasons to be optimistic about the prospects of eventual amalgamation in the Saint John Region... despite the many, many naysayers on both sides of the city limits.

That's not true at all, there were lots of reforms that changed boundaries, capital cost sharing requirements, regional services, and more.

I understand you might have wanted more sweeping actions - and I agree for the most part - but it is factually false to say nothing changed.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

That's not true at all, there were lots of reforms that changed boundaries, capital cost sharing requirements, regional services, and more.

I understand you might have wanted more sweeping actions - and I agree for the most part - but it is factually false to say nothing changed.

Whoops, I guess you're right since I said it in such absolute terms. I should have said that the amalgamations in the Fredericton and Moncton CMAs were somewhat significant, while Saint John, the region that needed help, reform, and amalgamation the most, almost nothing changed at all.

The borders of Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, and Grand Bay were left completely unchanged in the 2023 municipal reforms, and that's like 95% of the CMA's population. So I'd mostly stand behind what I said before... nothing really did change to municipal borders here in the Saint John Region, other than borders of Hampton growing, and the creation of the Fundy Rural District.

Higgs had a much better option on the table, full scale regional amalgamation, but no one was ever expecting the premier and MLA for Quispamsis to be the one to champion the cause of regional amalgamation. Yet, he might have actually been able to sell people on the idea of amalgamation had he proposed something like the Region of Peel model, along with industrial and commercial property tax reform.

A model where each town and city within the regional municipality retained their councils and mayors, who would be the regional "super council" and government body of the regional municipality, would probably go down a lot better in the Saint John CMA, than a one sized fits all approach like Halifax. Though, a new name for the Regional Municipality would have to be part of that, as otherwise the outlying suburbs will see it as being absorbed by Saint John.

Personally, I think the Halifax model (but with a new name other than Saint John) would be best for the region as a whole, and would probably result in the most significant long term progress and economic development results. Going with something like the Peel model would be an improvement to the current situation, but it wouldn't really get at the root of the issues of tribalism and resentment that have fermented for decades between Saint John and its outlying suburbs. Even if the province created the Wolastoq Regional Municipality tomorrow, based on "Peel model", there would still be a lot of negative stereotypes about the city of Saint John that would persist through regional amalgamation, and the situation between the city and the "towns by the bay" would remain quite segregated, disjointed, and just not reaching the full potential of what this region has to offer.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Whoops, I guess you're right since I said it in such absolute terms. I should have said that the amalgamations in the Fredericton and Moncton CMAs were somewhat significant, while Saint John, the region that needed help, reform, and amalgamation the most, almost nothing changed at all.

The borders of Saint John, Rothesay, Quispamsis, and Grand Bay were left completely unchanged in the 2023 municipal reforms, and that's like 95% of the CMA's population. So I'd mostly stand behind what I said before... nothing really did change to municipal borders here in the Saint John Region, other than borders of Hampton growing, and the creation of the Fundy Rural District.

Higgs had a much better option on the table, full scale regional amalgamation, but no one was ever expecting the premier and MLA for Quispamsis to be the one to champion the cause of regional amalgamation. Yet, he might have actually been able to sell people on the idea of amalgamation had he proposed something like the Region of Peel model, along with industrial and commercial property tax reform.

A model where each town and city within the regional municipality retained their councils and mayors, who would be the regional "super council" and government body of the regional municipality would probably go down a lot better in the Saint John CMA, than a one sized fits all approach like Halifax. Though, a new name for the Regional Municipality would have to be part of that, as otherwise the outlying suburbs will see it as being absorbed by Saint John.

Personally, I think the Halifax model (but with a new name other than Saint John) would be best for the region as a whole, and would probably result in the most significant long term progress and economic development results. Going with something like the Peel model would be an improvement to the current situation, but it wouldn't really get at the root of the issues of tribalism and resentment that have fermented for decades between Saint John and its outlying suburbs. Even if the province created the Wolastoq Regional Municipality tomorrow, based on "Peel model", there would still be a lot of negative stereotypes about the city of Saint John that would persist through regional amalgamation, and the situation between the city and the "towns by the bay" would remain quite segregated, disjointed, and just not reaching the full potential of what this region has to offer.

Another layer of government................. just what this little province doesn't need! We got rid of regional (AKA county governments) 58 years ago under Louis Robichaud

I don't get your laser focus on getting rid of the name "Saint John". The chances of that ever being accepted are infinitesimal. The oldest incorporated city in Canada? Royal charter dating from 1785? Not going to happen.....just give it up and stop harping on the subject over and over and over again. It is getting tiresome.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Something like this is what I'd considered major change for New Brunswick's oldest municipality and New Brunswick's first CMA... and I think the region would tremendously benefit from such major change in the long term.

I think the Saint John CMA is in much bigger need of a major shakeup and reorganization than either the Moncton or Fredericton CMAs. The City of Saint John desperately needs meaningful and comprehensive tax reform, but it also needs a new deal with its bedroom communities that brings about fairness.

Personally, I don't think Saint John will ever see true, comprehensive tax reform realized when so many politically and economically influential people in this province live in Saint John's bedroom communities. These people benefit from the current property tax system that doesn't allow Saint John to more fairly tax industrial and commercial properties, and doesn't allow Saint John to keep all of the industrial and commercial property tax revenue that is generated within the city's borders.

As is, I'm quite skeptical that the Holt government will fully deliver on property tax reform as is needed for this city to flourish again. To me, her choice to name the MLA for Quispamsis as the Minister of Local Government and Minister responsible for Service New Brunswick, didn't exactly scream "big changes to come" for tax reform or for better cooperation between Saint John and its bedroom communities... but you never know lol.

If they do actually deliver big on tax reform... then maybe, just maybe, they could actually could tackle regional amalgamation in New Brunswick's oldest city and metro region next.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Something like this is what I'd considered major change for New Brunswick's oldest municipality and New Brunswick's first CMA... and I think the region would tremendously benefit from such major change in the long term.

I think the Saint John CMA is in much bigger need of a major shakeup and reorganization than either the Moncton or Fredericton CMAs. The City of Saint John desperately needs meaningful and comprehensive tax reform, but it also needs a new deal with its bedroom communities that brings about fairness.

Personally, I don't think Saint John will ever see true, comprehensive tax reform realized when so many politically and economically influential people in this province live in Saint John's bedroom communities. These people benefit from the current property tax system that doesn't allow Saint John to more fairly tax industrial and commercial properties, and doesn't allow Saint John to keep all of the industrial and commercial property tax revenue that is generated within the city's borders.

As as, I'm quite skeptical that the Holt government will fully deliver on property tax reform as is needed for this city to flourish again. To me, her choice to name the MLA for Quispamsis as the Minister of Local Government and Minister responsible for Service New Brunswick, didn't exactly scream "big changes to come" for tax reform or for better cooperation between Saint John and its bedroom communities... but you never know lol.

If they do actually deliver big on tax reform... then maybe, just maybe, they could actually could tackle regional amalgamation in New Brunswick's oldest city and metro region next.

Saint John is too large (geographically) as it is. Expanding it's boundaries further is a really, really BAD IDEA.

[CharlotteCountyLogan]

A Saint John that spans from Lepreau to St. Martins. Im not saying I think it's a good idea but it's certainly a idea. The people of Lepreau and Musquash and those little communities would not be happy. Same goes for the areas east of the city.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by CharlotteCountyLogan

A Saint John that spans from Lepreau to St. Martins. Im not saying I think it's a good idea but it's certainly a idea. The people of Lepreau and Musquash and those little communities would not be happy. Same goes for the areas east of the city.

Saint John does an historically poor job providing municipal services to existing outlying areas. This would make things worse.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I don't get your laser focus on getting rid of the name "Saint John". The chances of that ever being accepted are infinitesimal. The oldest incorporated city in Canada? Royal charter dating from 1785? Not going to happen.....just give it up and stop harping on the subject over and over and over again. It is getting tiresome.

Do you not understand how going with a new name for the Regional Municipality wouldn't mean getting rid of the name "Saint John"? The Creation of the Regional Municipality of Peel did not get rid of Mississauga or Brampton. The creation of the Cape Breton Regional Municipality did not get rid of Sydney. The creation of the Capital Regional District did not get rid of Victoria.

Likewise, like the creation of the Wolastoq Regional Municipality would not get rid of Saint John.

But here, to make it really simple for you to understand, here's an illustration that shows how Saint John would not be gotten rid of by going with the name "Wolastoq Regional Municipality":


Saint John and its neighbours NOT wiped off the map by the creation of the WRM.

I think your extreme cynicism on this subject is far more tiresome than my optimistic views on the benefits of regional amalgamation and the added benefits of going with a new name for that new, regional municipality, Sailor

I'm not going to stop posting on this important issue and opportunity that could benefit this city and this region, just because you don't have the same opinion as me.

If anything, you're just motivating me to come up with better arguments for amalgamation under a new name.

Feel free to start your own poll thread on the subject of regional amalgamation in the Saint John Region, sailor. ... though, I think the results of such a poll might go against the narrative you and some others posters try to perpetuate on here, that I'm the only one that wants regional amalgamation.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Saint John is too large (geographically) as it is. Expanding it's boundaries further is a really, really BAD IDEA.

I disagree completely. At least the borders would be expanded to include the wealthiest communities within the CMA. Saint John's borders are too big as is, because so much of the territory is unpopulated wilderness, and does not include the the wealthy and urbanized bedroom communities, whose residents overwhelmingly work in Saint John, and even take up a lot of the top leadership positions at the City of Saint John.


Should we not want to improve this situation?

You claim that "Saint John is too large (geographically) as it is and that expanding its boundaries further is a really, really BAD IDEA. Yet, that's exactly what Halifax did, and it turned out to be a really, really GOOD IDEA!


Here's the municipal borders of Saint John compared with the municipal borders of the HRM at the same scale:



If anything, the borders just aren't big enough.

Originally Posted by sailor734

Saint John does an historically poor job providing municipal services to existing outlying areas. This would make things worse.

What about under a regional council model, like in Peel and other regions of Ontario? The people who are currently involved with running the "towns by the bay" would be heavily involved in the regional governance of an amalgamated municipality, regardless of which model was followed.

If a one size fits all model was adopted, where there was only one mayor, and one regional council (like in the HRM), I think most of the future mayors would be from places like Quispamsis, Rothesay, Grand Bay, and not Saint John. It would be a huge shakeup, and likely result in a better run municipal government.

[irisheyes]

It might be worthwhile to consider a complete redraw of the city limits. Incorporate the areas outside of the fog belt, ie the suburbs (KV, GB) while removing the empty rural lands east and west. It was provincial and federal urban renewal schemes that opened these areas along the river to development. Couple that with an abundance of land and favourable weather and you get the growth of the suburbs we have to reckon with today.