NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[NYguy]

LOL, you people don't get it. I guess you won't get it until you see what gets built. Carry on.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by BanBrokenChatBots

Well the VP's of MSG did say publicly they're willing to move across the street on this site which would be beneficial to everyone in this area for development.

MSG isn't moving to the 15 PP site. That isn't on the table.

I don't think it's unrealistic that MSG (eventually) moves, but it won't be there. IMO 15 PP will be long-completed before MSG moves.

[ChiND]

I can't wait for May. I hope that the worst arena in the NHL and a malignant tumor on Penn is removed.

https://www.westsidespirit.com/news/now-...square-garden-says-andy-byford-ME5327394


Grand Penn Alluance

Now’s the Time to Decide the Fate of Madison Square Garden, Says Andy Byford
Madison Square Garden can either stay or go, but the time to make a decision is now, says the man charged with overseeing the rebuilding of Penn Station.
Michael Oreskes| 29 Nov 2025 | 05:48

“So, for various reasons, then, we are leaving that question open,” Byford said of moving the Garden. “I expect there to be proposals predicated on the Garden staying put, and proposals predicated on the Garden moving, and we will then evaluate them against all those variables: how much it costs, what the environmental impacts are, how long would it take. We’ll factor it all into the mix and then make a considered and very, very carefully thought through recommendation.”

Bottcher asked Byford if there was a third option, improving Penn Station in a way that would leave “flexibility” if Dolan agreed later to move the Garden. That, replied Byford, was a poor idea.

[NYguy]

The pedestrian bridge/connection over Plaza 33 is now before the Design Commission...



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[ChiND]

We're about five or six months from learning how much (or how little) the Penn Station neighborhood will change.

Byford Sounds Affordability Message for Penn Station Rebuild

15 Dec 2025

https://www.westsidespirit.com/news/byfo...ssage-for-penn-station-rebuild-NL5379483

The earlier Halmar proposal illustrates another uncertainty around the cost of the project: the future of Madison Square Garden. Byford has left it to individual bidders whether to propose moving the Garden, which would add time and presumably cost to the project.

Halmar in its plan leaves the Garden in place, but purchases from The Garden’s owner, James Dolan, the theater on the west side of the Garden, which Halmar would demolish to make way for a grand entrance facing the old Farley Post office, which now houses Amtrak’s new Moynihan train hall.

The ASTM plan would look nice, but it doesn't include through running. Therefore, I don't see how it increases capacity. Effective through running requires the removal of MSG's support columns.

[Crawford]

There is no reason or constituency for thru-running, except for special events.

Any expansion of Penn capacity requires the Penn South expansion, with at least 8-10 additional tracks.

[NYguy]

Firget about through running.

He’s not saying anything I didn’t expect he would say. People with grand visions of a rebuilt Penn Station - at the street level - will be dissapointed. Amtrak, which itself is based out of Moynihan Station, only has authority on what happens underground. Anything beyond that is the city and state. And they’ve already made their positions known on all of this. The guy was brought in to cut costs, not drive up the price needlessly to satisfy people who want to kive in nostalgia. And people who use the station daily (myself included) just want a functioning station - one to get into and out of as quickly as possible. Being an underground station alters that a lot, and I can’t express that enough.

Affordable is the political word of the year. Now, it’s even come for plans for a new Penn Station.

“What we can’t do is have a beautiful new station that’s unaffordable for the railroads to be able to deliver,” said the official in charge of delivering it, Andy Byford, special advisor to Amtrak, which owns the station.

But by bringing up the cost of the project, Byford was seeking to reassure some of his key stakeholders–the commuter railroads which use the station and the state governments they answer to– that he won’t propose something that saddles them and their riders with paying back some huge long-term debt.

….. A first point is that the more money government’s put in upfront the less the railroads–which means taxpayers or riders–will have to pay back later. On this, Byford appears to be reopening discussions with New Jersey and New York about their contributions.

After the Trump administration seized control of the Penn Station project from the MTA, a state agency, Governor Hochul withdrew a billion dollars New York state had been offering. It is not clear if Byford can recover that money.

[ChiND]

Do you think that nothing will be done to increase train capacity?

If all the Dolans do is give up the theatre (and at a massive cost) and possibly the taxi lane, they should lose their insane tax exemption. I’m a proponent of low taxes, but that’s ridiculous.

We’ll know in five months, but this is a once in a lifetime chance to effect real change. Further, as Byford suggested, if the worst and oldest arena in the NBA doesn’t move now, then it’s basically stuck there. MSG is lousy, ugly, and inefficient now. It would be a total joke fifty years from now.

Gahenna, Tartarus,et al… Vile per se!

[SammyBaby]

Originally Posted by NYguy

Firget about through running.

He’s not saying anything I didn’t expect he would say. People with grand visions of a rebuilt Penn Station - at the street level - will be dissapointed. Amtrak, which itself is based out of Moynihan Station, only has authority on what happens underground. Anything beyond that is the city and state. And they’ve already made their positions known on all of this. The guy was brought in to cut costs, not drive up the price needlessly to satisfy people who want to kive in nostalgia. And people who use the station daily (myself included) just want a functioning station - one to get into and out of as quickly as possible. Being an underground station alters that a lot, and I can’t express that enough.

All of nyGuy's posts concerning the moving of MSG or even hinting at that are always so sure that MSG will never be moved that I feel like nyGuy is a shill for James Dolan the owner of MSG.
In the end, money talks and bullshiit walks and anything is possible.
All parties involved have the opportunity to collaborate on what could become a beautiful new terminal echoing the design of the original Penn Station with through running opening up the region to endless mass rail possibilities in an age of congestion pricing and a car unfriendly environment.
If Mr. Dolan doesn't comply then he will be forced to move through legal remedies a plenty.
The people of NYC will not tolerate a third rate redesign of what's already a trecherous dump!

[ChiND]

I find it hard to believe that Dolan wouldn’t want a new, efficient arena on 7th Avenue. Barclays and UBS are dramatically superior to MSG, which is an inefficient dump.


Not to mention, the Grand Penn Alliance and the ReThinkNYC plans are the only ones that increase capacity in the current footprint (via through running), and they both call for the removal of MSG in order to remove the columns that impede a through running plan.

Finally, won't the new tunnels under the Hudson be essentially useless if track congestion at Penn isn't resolved?

[ChiND]

https://www.ourtownny.com/news/mystery-4th-bidder-enters-contest-to-rebuild-penn-station-JK5396874

Mystery 4th Bidder Enters Contest to Rebuild Penn Station
On Dec. 16, four companies told Andy Byford they’d like to be the firm that partners with Amtrak on the massive project of rebuilding Penn Station. Byford’s countdown clock is ticking already.
MICHAEL ORESKES | 19 DEC 2025

“The firing gun really has started.”

That is Andy Byford, special adviser to Amtrak, describing the opening on Dec. 16 of one of the most significant development competitions in modern New York history.

At 2 p.m. that day, letters arrived from four separate teams of architects and builders expressing interest in being Amtrak’s private partner in rebuilding Penn Station.

That number, four, was, itself, news. For several years now most of the conversations about rehabilitating, reinventing, or restoring Penn Station have been driven by three groups, all of which were understood to have submitted letters of interest in turning those conversations into construction.

So, who then is the fourth bidder? The bidders are all under instructions from Amtrak to keep their mouths shut. All that Amtrak would say is that it received four letters at the deadline.

[The New York Lion]

Originally Posted by SammyBaby

All of nyGuy's posts concerning the moving of MSG or even hinting at that are always so sure that MSG will never be moved that I feel like nyGuy is a shill for James Dolan the owner of MSG.
In the end, money talks and bullshiit walks and anything is possible.
All parties involved have the opportunity to collaborate on what could become a beautiful new terminal echoing the design of the original Penn Station with through running opening up the region to endless mass rail possibilities in an age of congestion pricing and a car unfriendly environment.
If Mr. Dolan doesn't comply then he will be forced to move through legal remedies a plenty.
The people of NYC will not tolerate a third rate redesign of what's already a trecherous dump!

Yeah.

That ChiND guy is very smart. I would follow his instincts on this.

Plus, this is already the 4th Madison Square Garden.

It's not like Ground Zero or whatever. I would bet very heavily there will be a 5th in my lifetime.

[BuildThemTaller]

Originally Posted by The New York Lion

That ChiND guy is very smart. I would follow his instincts on this.

One of the funniest and saddest comments I've seen on this forum in years.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller

One of the funniest and saddest comments I've seen on this forum in years.

Most of us can't claim to have been the star student in the Patchogue BOCES class like you, BuildThemTaller. Be modest, BTT. We know that you're a master plumber.

[The New York Lion]

Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller

One of the funniest and saddest comments I've seen on this forum in years.

Why?

Where is he wrong?

ChiND has consistently been proven correct in my time of reading his posts.

If the feds want MSG to move across the street, it will move across the street. The feds are the only ones with the political and financial power to make this all happen. What Amtrak controls, what the city controls- none of that stuff means anything.

It's really that simple. Any arguments to the contrary are bizarre.

[The New York Lion]

Originally Posted by NYguy

You can disagree all you want. MSG is one of the top arenas of the planet. Try proving in court that MSG and 2 Penn (newly rebuilt by the way) need to be moved for the "greater good" when there is no greater good in removing those buildings as they exist today.

SammyBaby is correct, too.

The language with eminent domain is "Public use", a purview which this would clearly fall under.

Furthermore, as per the SCOTUS ruling in Kelo v. New London, the Feds can use the power of eminent domain even for ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.

The upside in this area with a new Penn Station, new MSG- is quite frankly more enormous than you and I can even fathom.

[UrbanImpact]

You're spamming our beloved forum using different identities to reply to threads. Just pick one.

[BK1985]

I read that ASTM is resubmitting their proposal with a revised design. Cant wait to see some renderings of all the entries to see what we are working with.

[The New York Lion]

Originally Posted by BK1985

I read that ASTM is resubmitting their proposal with a revised design. Cant wait to see some renderings of all the entries to see what we are working with.

The Koreans are apparently offering $15 billion.

Their proposal moves MSG and incorporates through running.

They are viewing this as the "front door" to a massive, world-class Koreatown.

[ChiND]

Originally Posted by BK1985

I read that ASTM is resubmitting their proposal with a revised design. Cant wait to see some renderings of all the entries to see what we are working with.

ASTM’s plan could turn out looking beautiful, but it does nothing to ease track congestion and train capacity.