Alto High Speed Rail

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

I check on the PRT corridor. VIA sold it to the Prescott Russell Recreational Trail Corporation in late 2021. (Not saying they couldn't buy it back, at least it's intact).

Ah, I wasn't aware of the 2021 sale.

[urbanforest]

Not to add to the confusion but Alto’s social media specifically says Ottawa>Laval>Montreal. Who knows what it will actually be built as.

I’m inclined to agree that including Laval is an unnecessary cost and contributor to trip time, especially when you consider that most trips will likely be between Montreal and Ottawa/Toronto, meaning that most passengers will have to spend time stopping at Laval. Putting my tinfoil hat on for a sec, maybe it’s a hedge against a yes vote on Quebec independence.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by urbanforest

Not to add to the confusion but Alto’s social media specifically says Ottawa>Laval>Montreal. Who knows what it will actually be built as.

I’m inclined to agree that including Laval is an unnecessary cost and contributor to trip time, especially when you consider that most trips will likely be between Montreal and Ottawa/Toronto, meaning that most passengers will have to spend time stopping at Laval. Putting my tinfoil hat on for a sec, maybe it’s a hedge against a yes vote on Quebec independence.

On Alto website it's

[urbanforest]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

On Alto website it's

Oh jeez. So it’s anyone’s guess, even theirs.


I did notice that the press release makes no mention of Laval whatsoever.

[acottawa]

If they are using existing rail corridors that would be the Quebec and Gatineau to Mrirabel and then the St Jerome line into Montreal (through Laval). Otherwise, maybe they are planning to just expropriate a straight line.

I am not sure how these are more viable options than the existing corridor via already mostly owns.

[Dengler Avenue]

I highly doubt that Alto would want to go through the Quebec side of Ottawa River when the Ontario side has much much easier terrain. Some rock cuts on A-50 reach as high as 30 m and that road is only designed for 110 kph. Now imagine plowing through metamorphic rocks for a railway designed for 300 kph.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It really depends how much the per ride subsidy would be. Unless they are very high train tickets would be prohibitive for commuting.

The $40 3 hour bus currently packs them in over the $50 2:30 bus or the $60 2 hour train. Even $40 each way be prohibitive for most. I think it will need to be sub $100 to be attractive. Less than an hour would be game changing for sure creating lots of new trips. The vast majority are still going to drive as their final destinations aren't downtown at either or both ends. The vast majority living more than 30 minutes by public transport from either central station wherever that might be.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I highly doubt that Alto would want to go through the Quebec side of Ottawa River when the Ontario side has much much easier terrain. Some rock cuts on A-50 reach as high as 30 m and that road is only designed for 110 kph. Now imagine plowing through metamorphic rocks for a railway designed for 300 kph.

Yeah in most places. But the land aquisition could be a lot easier which might one of the big obstructions even if we are turning the page on our normal way of doing things.

It seems like for that $90 billion range the urban part is planned to be completelhy new tunnels. It certainly has to be new right of way unless we are paving the existing route with gold.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by roger1818

On Alto's website, there is a map showing where they have commissioned surveys. Given that the surveys commissioned in 2025 were mostly along a northerly route between Ottawa and Montreal, that should indicate where they are focusing their attention.

https://www.altotrain.ca/en/field-studies/field-studies

That survey map (if the pins are reasonably accurate) almost looks like their contemplating a route north of the north between Ottawa and Montreal. Not sure where they'd cross, however?

Edit: This could throw a kink into the interprovincial bridge plans. No point in building two bridges, it would make much more sense to consolidate into a single mixed mode bridge. Seems like a slightly more eastern routing would make more sense in that case - maybe crossing closer to Greens Creek?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The vast majority are still going to drive as their final destinations aren't downtown at either or both ends. The vast majority living more than 30 minutes by public transport from either central station wherever that might be.

I think you are making some pretty big assumptions, including on the price sensitivity of business travellers. The downtowns are still the largest destinations for travellers by a long shot, and if you can make the trip take an hour, that is going to be hugely attractive to people. Even if you aren't going downtown Montreal, the coverage and convenience that the metro and REM provide is going to greatly expand the market that is inside of a 2 hr trip.

Also remember that weather is not a small factor for 4 months of the year. To the extent the train is more reliable and safer, people will prefer it to winter driving, which can be a lot slower than 2 hours.

Even if you ignore the real cost of driving, just gas and parking makes a $100 train ticket pretty competitive (for one person that is).

[Dengler Avenue]

I’m surely looking forward to riding the LRT from Kanata to the train station then hopping on the HSR then either REM or STM Metro to see my friends in Ville Saint Laurent (if they still live there by then).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

It really depends how much the per ride subsidy would be. Unless they are very high train tickets would be prohibitive for commuting.

I expect that fares will at least cover operational costs.

In every other market with HSR, supercommuters are a massive proportion of users. Usually something like a third to half. And I would guess it's not people who travel everyday.

I was traveling in Spain on my Honeymoon and met a young lawyer taking the train from Cordoba to Seville. 150 km commute done in 45 mins. He explained to me that his job in Seville gets him a big city salary. Cordoba gives him small town life and affordability. He was was walking distance from the station on both ends. And only having to go in 2-3x per week made the whole thing worthwhile. That anecdote is a good one of supercommuters I'd expect. People who don't have to travel everyday. Mostly white collar. And they can get to either station in good time. Probably lots of people who do short them contracts. Etc.

By the way, there's a ton of people who already use VIA to commute from Coburg, Belleville, Or even London or Kingston to Toronto.

[rocketphish]

High-speed rail plans get high praise in the nation's capital
Could make commutes easier, bring increased revenue to the city

Liam Baker · CBC News · Posted: Dec 13, 2025 1:52 PM EST | Last Updated: 3 hours ago

There's been positive reaction in Ottawa to news that the nation's capital could be home to Canada’s first high-speed rail line by the end of the decade.

On Friday, the federal government announced that construction on the line linking Ottawa to Montreal could begin as early as 2029.

With trains expected to reach speeds of 300 kilometres per hour, they could cut the commute time between the two cities in half, an enticing prospect for those wary of heavy traffic in and around Montreal.

“I don’t really go to Montreal that often, but I’d probably be more keen on going because [it would be] a lot easier,” said Ottawa-area resident Thane Tremaine.

Once completed, the Ottawa-Montreal line will be the first segment of a planned Toronto-to-Quebec City high-speed rail corridor.

In Ottawa's business community, the project is being praised as a way to both attract out-of-town talent and keep graduates of local post-secondary institutions from heading elsewhere.

“It makes it easier for those who might want to work here certain days a week, and travel very rapidly back and forth,” said Sonya Shorey, president of Invest Ottawa.

“I think it also allows us to ... shine an even greater spotlight on all the attributes of Ottawa. And so having that high-speed rail creates a better quality of life for those who are here that want to go outbound and travel.”

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...aise-9.7014790

[Kitchissippi]

It would be funny if the corridor goes through Mirabel and ends up reviving that airport.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It would be funny if the corridor goes through Mirabel and ends up reviving that airport.

At least the hotel is still there, albeit looking a little rough.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I expect that fares will at least cover operational costs.

In every other market with HSR, supercommuters are a massive proportion of users. Usually something like a third to half. And I would guess it's not people who travel everyday.

I was traveling in Spain on my Honeymoon and met a young lawyer taking the train from Cordoba to Seville. 150 km commute done in 45 mins. He explained to me that his job in Seville gets him a big city salary. Cordoba gives him small town life and affordability. He was was walking distance from the station on both ends. And only having to go in 2-3x per week made the whole thing worthwhile. That anecdote is a good one of supercommuters I'd expect. People who don't have to travel everyday. Mostly white collar. And they can get to either station in good time. Probably lots of people who do short them contracts. Etc.

By the way, there's a ton of people who already use VIA to commute from Coburg, Belleville, Or even London or Kingston to Toronto.

Super commuters being half to a third of customers seems implausible, what is your source for that? If that were the case you would expect to see large numbers of trains leaving at about 7 am and much lighter traffic during the day, and that is not what schedules look like. The first train from Cordova to Seville for example gets in after 9, even though Spanish work days start relatively early. On most routes the early morning trains are also the cheapest of the day, which again you would not expect if that train carried a third to a half of business.

Spain also has some of the most subsidized trains in the world, with the government heavily subsidizing individual tickets and passes in recent years. As well, Spain is a major recipient of EU infrastructure funding. A Spanish financial model would not readily apply to Canada.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Super commuters being half to a third of customers seems implausible, what is your source for that? If that were the case you would expect to see large numbers of trains leaving at about 7 am and much lighter traffic during the day, and that is not what schedules look like. The first train from Cordova to Seville for example gets in after 9, even though Spanish work days start relatively early. On most routes the early morning trains are also the cheapest of the day, which again you would not expect if that train carried a third to a half of business.

The stat I read wasn't Spain specific. But if I find it I'll post. It jived with my observation taking our train at 11 am (I wasn't going to book an early train on vacation). Most passengers weren't dressed like tourists with luggage. It was mostly business travelers. Which also lines up with HSR eating in to air travel. I assume most travel is either business (for a meeting) or commuters in the less traditional sense of 9-5, say a patent lawyer going to the patent office for an afternoon. Clearly somebody who can afford a more expensive ticket isn't going to be doing this everyday and probably has way more flexibility than a 9-5er. A good chunk of them also worked during that train ride. Connectivity was surprisingly good.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Spain also has some of the most subsidized trains in the world, with the government heavily subsidizing individual tickets and passes in recent years. As well, Spain is a major recipient of EU infrastructure funding. A Spanish financial model would not readily apply to Canada.

And tolled highways. It's fantastic. Must be giving you a tick.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Spain also has some of the most subsidized trains in the world, with the government heavily subsidizing individual tickets and passes in recent years. As well, Spain is a major recipient of EU infrastructure funding. A Spanish financial model would not readily apply to Canada.

Well not sure about the last point. If this is really going north of the Ottawa River its looks it will be a mostly Quebec line. With a few kilometers only built in Ontario. Add maybe a stop in Lachute that would be the Cordoba-like super commuter route. Quebec is absolutely the Spain or Hungary of Canada in terms of squeezing funds from the centre.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The stat I read wasn't Spain specific. But if I find it I'll post. It jived with my observation taking our train at 11 am (I wasn't going to book an early train on vacation). Most passengers weren't dressed like tourists with luggage. It was mostly business travelers. Which also lines up with HSR eating in to air travel. I assume most travel is either business (for a meeting) or commuters in the less traditional sense of 9-5, say a patent lawyer going to the patent office for an afternoon. Clearly somebody who can afford a more expensive ticket isn't going to be doing this everyday and probably has way more flexibility than a 9-5er. A good chunk of them also worked during that train ride. Connectivity was surprisingly good.

Ok, but a business traveller is not a commuter, particularly if they are on a train at 11 am (which was the post I was responding to). It is fairly well established that high speed trains cut into airline business at distances of a few hundred km. The challenge that high speed trains often have is attracting more price sensitive travellers.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well not sure about the last point. If this is really going north of the Ottawa River its looks it will be a mostly Quebec line. With a few kilometers only built in Ontario. Add maybe a stop in Lachute that would be the Cordoba-like super commuter route. Quebec is absolutely the Spain or Hungary of Canada in terms of squeezing funds from the centre.

Quebec is nowhere near Spain in getting money for rail projects. Quebec is also probably unwilling to give the massive ticket subsidies that Spain does.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Quebec is nowhere near Spain in getting money for rail projects. Quebec is also probably unwilling to give the massive ticket subsidies that Spain does.

I'd venture Quebec gets a much bigger overall subsidy from Ottawa than Spain does from Brussels. But yes not on trains. And the point is tt will be a Federal project so the Lachute to Montreal subsidy will be paid by the feds.

Probably we end up with a model adapted from the REM. Though it will be more subsizided as a per km subsidy would have to be so huge for private money to pay for it all. Actually it would show how ridiculous the whole idea is but that's why it can't happen. And sure recovering the capital cost doesn't have to even paritally on the table as most of that is spent in Canada with huge multiplier effects and tax revenues.

The REM model is actually great for getting a good project. They will focus on ridership instead of other silliness like making 3 stops in Gatineau or something that slows the whole thing down.