Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The simplest answer is indeed likely the best one.

We have, or will have more than one rapid transit need in Vancouver, so it is logical to explore other options that we may have.

Being able to extend the Canada Line would be huge because we could then utilize the existing downtown stations, and railyard that would otherwise be difficult and expensive to build if we built a new, separate line.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

- snip -

And we will build as many lines as required to fit those needs. The problem isn't creativity, the problem is funding, and gutting City Centre and Waterfront doesn't do anything except add a few more billion $$ to the to-do list.
The Production Way-Columbia clustershag and the Bridgeport flyover (both of which reduce capacity even further) are also problems, but this is the situation now and we have to make the best of it.

Nobody said a relief line had to go downtown; the Purple Line all but skips Vancouver entirely. On top of that, since a large chunk of downtown's SkyTrain traffic is just trying to transfer from the Expo and Millennium to the Canada, there's a good chance that once the Broadway extension opens, we don't need a relief line at all for a long while.

[ilikeredheads]

Canada Line was never designed to be extended and will never be extended. There is simply no space for the tracks to go anywhere further at waterfront. It's a dead end literally and figuratively.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Canada Line was never designed to be extended and will never be extended. There is simply no space for the tracks to go anywhere further at waterfront. It's a dead end literally and figuratively.

Assuming that the Canada Line cars can do a 25 meter (or even 30 meter radius) radius turn, which is the information I got doing a Google AI search, there's a good possibility that the Canada Line can make that turn east on Cordova. I measured the turning radius using Google Earth Pro.

The Canada Line can't go any further north, that's for sure. What information do you have that says it can't turn east down Cordova.

[Migrant_Coconut]

SkyTrains can also handle a 6% grade, but planners like to avoid that kind of slope. Pushing the system to its limits over and over again greatly reduces its shelf life.

At any rate, both tracks are also blocked by Waterfront Station's basement, the Canada Line's own pedestrian tunnel, and a large concrete barrier, so they're not going anywhere.

Just as importantly, the laws of physics dictate that neither the train nor the passengers will handle a 100-degree hairpin turn mid-acceleration/deceleration without losing a few pieces, so anybody commuting beyond Waterfront can look forward to a 30-60 second crawl out of the station before getting back up to speed, which will also likely impact scheduling on the rest of the line. The law of diminishing returns is whacking this idea over the head with a frying pan.

[cganuelas1995]

Is it weird for someone to sit next to someone on a nearly empty early morning train or am I weird for thinking it's weird

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Is it weird for someone to sit next to someone on a nearly empty early morning train or am I weird for thinking it's weird

Do you mean literally beside you on the same double seat or on the seat in front/behind you?

Many of us have our "favourite seats" that we always aim for. For me, I like forward facing seats on the left side of the bus with an unobstructed window view. Or with a good view on the right side if the sun is coming in the left.

[officedweller]

Yes, weird.
Pickpocket or syringe / knife attacker....

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Do you mean literally beside you on the same double seat or on the seat in front/behind you?

Many of us have our "favourite seats" that we always aim for. For me, I like forward facing seats on the left side of the bus with an unobstructed window view. Or with a good view on the right side if the sun is coming in the left.

Right next to me, and more specifically I'm in the aisle seat, they go with the window

[logan5]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Right next to me, and more specifically I'm in the aisle seat, they go with the window

Did you sit back down beside the person? Alarm bells would go off for me if someone did that. I'd move to another car.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Right next to me, and more specifically I'm in the aisle seat, they go with the window

Yes, that is definitely very weird, assuming there are lots of other seats available.

I know that when the bus is full, sitting in the aisle seat next to an empty window seat can seem like you're trying to hoard the seat for yourself. I wouldn't consider it weird for someone who wants to sit to take that seat in those circumstances.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by logan5

Did you sit back down beside the person? Alarm bells would go off for me if someone did that. I'd move to another car.

First time I just let them in because the train was rather full for early AM, this time I decided to just move seats

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

First time I just let them in because the train was rather full for early AM, this time I decided to just move seats

"Rather full" and your earlier description of "nearly empty" paint two pretty different pictures...

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

"Rather full" and your earlier description of "nearly empty" paint two pretty different pictures...

"rather full" as in no empty rows, being the first instance

"nearly empty" as in there are empty rows, being the second instance

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

With regards to buses, how do we do DBF without requiring people to tap off while alighting? Compass reader on the pole?

Another option is just price the buses differently based on level of service.

Base Fare: Base buses
Plus Fare: Rapid Buses

That way you're paying for convenience and speed as well.

For simplicity in numbers:
Skytrain $3-$5, depends only on distance, includes transfer to basic buses.

Base Fare: $2.50
Plus Fare (Rapid bus): $3 ($2.50 + $0.50 premium)
Long Distance fare (BRT): $4 (includes $1.50 premium)

That's if you don't want to make BRT distance based... in which case it charges you $4 but if you get off after 1 or two stops and tap out, it reverts to a Plus Fare.

There's a lot of different ways you can run the fares, none of which is easily possible under the current system Translink is using.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I believe the only way to have the Canada Line make a right angle turn onto Cordova Street would be to basically rip out the existing station and build a new one on Cordova, perhaps directly in front of Waterfront Station. I have absolutely no idea whether that's feasible or not, but in terms of geometry that seems to be what would be required.

If you're going to do that, why not just leave the Canada Line intact and build a new independent line that terminates at a new station in front of Waterfront. Or, and here's something I bet nobody has ever thought of - perhaps extend the Expo line eastward from Waterfront...??!!

Yeah, I don't really see the point of extending the Canada line to turn and loop back down to meet the Millennium Line at Main and Broadway. I mean, as a relief line, it does what? Provides a tiny bit of reverse flow traffic on the Canada Line to get downtown, I guess? It's really just an extra connection. linking the lines together.

It offers one advantage in that we could continue to use the SAME OMC I guess, but that's it.

If we REALLY need a downtown Relief line, why not just build a completely separate N/S shuttle line on Main itself.

Extend the Expo Line to Main and start with a 3-stop shuttle between Japantown, Main/St. Chinatown, and Mt. Pleasant. Use that weird triangle section at Kingsway to build a single rail connector to the Millennium Line so you can move a train or two between the lines as needed for maintenance so you don't need a separate OMC for now.

If, in the future, Main st. needs a longer line, you can still keep going down Main St south, perhaps connecting to a (more important) East/West 41st/49th line.

I mean, let's put things in perspective... what are the region's BUSIEST bus routes? In 2024:

#1 99 B-Line 10M boardings
#2 R4 41st Joyce/UBC st. 8.8M
#3 49 Metrotown/UBC 8.5M
#4 25 Brentwood/UBC 6.3M

A lot of these people aren't going downtown.

[jollyburger]

I think Cubic's Compass got replaced in Edmonton by Australia's Vix..

https://vixtechnology.com/products/pulse/

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

#1 99 B-Line 10M boardings
#2 R4 41st Joyce/UBC st. 8.8M
#3 49 Metrotown/UBC 8.5M
#4 25 Brentwood/UBC 6.3M

A lot of these people aren't going downtown.

On one hand, adding more limbs will most likely increase pressure on the heart.

On the other, the "heart" of the network is Commercial, City Hall, Main, and Stadium-Chinatown; Waterfront, and Granville/City Centre can stay as they are for now, they just need more trains (and maybe better tunnel connections).

On the third, a line down Kingsway itself from Metrotown to First Narrows (using the Purple's OMC) could be useful...

... On the fourth, I believe this conversation has long since outgrown the Transit Thread and really belongs in the Fantasy Thread.

[hollywoodnorth]

City of Vancouver exploring Olympic Line streetcar test revival after the 2026 FIFA World Cup

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-olympic-line-streetcar-demonstration-revival-proposal

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Canada Line was never designed to be extended and will never be extended. There is simply no space for the tracks to go anywhere further at waterfront. It's a dead end literally and figuratively.

It can be extended south, it can not be extended north or west.

The Expo line literately turns east, so it can not go west without removing waterfront station.

Like realistically there is no option to cross at waterfront. It has to go over a new bridge at the Ironworkers bridge, which means a hastings line to go that far, and also a line coming from Metrotown before it crosses.

Crossing over the lions gate with a rail vehicle is never going to happen, the bridge would have to be taken out of service for vehicle traffic, and we know that is not going to happen. That is literately a Vancouver landmark, and even replacing it with anything that isn't a suspension bridge would draw ire, it would be like tearing down the golden gate bridge in San Francisco.

Maybe in an alternate version of Vancouver where we expanded the trolley network instead of switching to busses, the Lions Gate would have been designed to accommodate rail passenger vehicles. But as it is, it was not, and the climb to get there is likely too much for an adhesion rail system. Even considering the LIM's on the Expo line vehicles that might be pushing it.

The reason trains don't operate at steep inclines is largely because it requires more energy to go up the incline and thus requires more braking power to come back down. So you wear out your vehicles motors and brakes faster. If you lose your brakes coming down the hill, it's going off the first curve in the direction it goes. Likewise if you lose a motor going up the hill and it has to come back down.

So while I have confidence in the LIM to handle a 6.5% grade, I would think the comfort level of the passengers would make that a non-starter in the same way going around a tight curve at 80kph makes people uncomfortable from the centripetal force. Just because the tech says you can, doesn't mean the passengers do.