Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion II

[logan5]

Originally Posted by officedweller

In addition, the 'sea wall' is at the end of the Canada Ljne station between it and Expo Waterfront Station. That's the massive concrete barrier separating downtown from the reclaimed areas that used to be waterfront.
You'd have to branch off further south and leave the station as a stub.

Didn't know about a concrete barrier. I presume that is underneath or even before Cordova Street? Concrete can be broken apart, unless that would be catastrophic.

The stairwell and corridor that leads from Waterfront Station/Expo Line to Canada Line goes across Cordova underneath Cordova street, so I'm guessing through this concrete barrier.

Can you show me/ explain exactly where this concrete barrier is?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logan5

- snip -

Even if there was room for a hairpin turn (debatable, 10-15m of clearance isn't nearly enough), the pedestrian tunnel is in the way. You either need to branch off and turn before Waterfront, or rip up Granville again and completely rebuild the station itself to be deeper.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Possibly into fantasy territory - would it be possible (without being crazy expensive) to have a Hastings Skytrain line extend past Waterfront towards Stanley Park, or is there too much in the way and it would have to terminate at Waterfront?

Probably fantasy territory, but I've had the same idea over and over again so you're not alone in it.

IIRC there's a vacant E-W track under Waterfront, but I'm not sure how you'd untangle it from the Expo to get into the West End. You're also giving up the Expo's OMCs and depots (i.e. need to build a new one somewhere along Hastings), which'll probably add even more to the final price tag.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Even if there was room for a hairpin turn (debatable, 10-15m of clearance isn't nearly enough), the pedestrian tunnel is in the way. You either need to branch off and turn before Waterfront, or rip up Granville again and completely rebuild the station itself to be deeper.

I believe the only way to have the Canada Line make a right angle turn onto Cordova Street would be to basically rip out the existing station and build a new one on Cordova, perhaps directly in front of Waterfront Station. I have absolutely no idea whether that's feasible or not, but in terms of geometry that seems to be what would be required.

If you're going to do that, why not just leave the Canada Line intact and build a new independent line that terminates at a new station in front of Waterfront. Or, and here's something I bet nobody has ever thought of - perhaps extend the Expo line eastward from Waterfront...??!!

[logan5]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I believe the only way to have the Canada Line make a right angle turn onto Cordova Street would be to basically rip out the existing station and build a new one on Cordova, perhaps directly in front of Waterfront Station. I have absolutely no idea whether that's feasible or not, but in terms of geometry that seems to be what would be required.

If you're going to do that, why not just leave the Canada Line intact and build a new independent line that terminates at a new station in front of Waterfront. Or, and here's something I bet nobody has ever thought of - perhaps extend the Expo line eastward from Waterfront...??!!

Would like to see an underground view. The south entrance for the Canada Line Waterfront Station (south of Hastings) is 115 meters away from Cordova street. With Canada Line stations being 50 meters max, I would guess the station itself is well clear of Cordova.

We will definitely need a downtown relief line, so I would use the Expo Line extension for that. If it's feasible to turn Canad Line up Cordova, that a perfect capacity for Hastings.

@migrant coconut - again, I measured with Google Earth Pro, and there is room withing the street grid (road space inside the sidewalks) to do a 40 meter radius turn. Not sure where you are getting 10 -15 meters.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The underground view, one more time. Went and superimposed the 00's Hub plan for good measure.

Doesn't matter how much room anybody thinks there is, Platform 3 (east) can only run for 10-15m before it hits its own pedestrian tunnel. Platform 4 (west) has slightly more room, but is likewise boxed in by the Expo, the same pedestrian tunnel, and Waterfront's basement as a whole.

The simplest solution - and the one TransLink has had in mind for literal decades - is to bring the Expo eastward and build a new N-S relief line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logan5

The south entrance for the Canada Line Waterfront Station (south of Hastings) is 115 meters away from Cordova street. With Canada Line stations being 50 meters max, I would guess the station itself is well clear of Cordova.

What you're missing is that there's a long concourse level and ticketing hall between that entrance on Granville Street and the actual station platforms, as shown in this YouTube video. The reason that's there is that during construction there was a large station box excavation in which they built not just the station but also the crossover switches immediately south of it. Ground level slopes up from Cordova street, so they used the space over the crossover switches for the ticketing hall.

About half of the distance between the Granville Street station entrance and Cordova is used by the ticket hall / crossover switch, and the other half is used by the station. The north end of the station, including it's stub tail tracks, extends underneath Cordova Street.

[logan5]

Thanks for the effort with the sketch, but it is not accurate. The corridor that leads to the Waterfront Canada Line station is 50 meters long, which puts the northern most point of the station about 20 meters south of Cordova Street. Plenty of room to make that corner.

The west track cutting across the pedestrian corridor can easily be reworked. Minor detail. Just wondering about a very large concrete barrier that officedweller mentioned, that could be an impediment.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

What you're missing is that there's a long concourse level and ticketing hall between that entrance on Granville Street and the actual station platforms, as shown in this YouTube video. The reason that's there is that during construction there was a large station box excavation in which they built not just the station but also the crossover switches immediately south of it. Ground level slopes up from Cordova street, so they used the space over the crossover switches for the ticketing hall.

About half of the distance between the Granville Street station entrance and Cordova is used by the ticket hall / crossover switch, and the other half is used by the station. The north end of the station, including it's stub tail tracks, extends underneath Cordova Street.

It doesn't. I measured it. Yes I have too much time on my hands right now. Lol.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It's accurate enough for all practical purposes; the end of the station box is under Cordova itself, not before it. Every single diagram has Platform 3 locked in place, and Platform 4 trapped by all the other infrastructure.

More importantly, such a sharp turn, even if physically possible at that location (it's NOT) would require the train to slow to a crawl, lest all the passengers go flying and the rails need re-grinding every month. Not conducive to rapid transit.

[officedweller]

Here's an excerpt from the Canada Line detailed station options (This was for the Sinclair Centre option).
The platforms are shown in the same location as-built.
You can see the barrier in dark hatching as well as in the axonometric view.
I don't think it can be removed.

[logan5]

Holy 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Thanks.

My measurement was fairly accurate!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Barrier or no barrier, it's pretty clear that Waterfront's literally the end of the line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Here's an excerpt from the Canada Line detailed station options (This was for the Sinclair Centre option).

Fantastic find, good work!

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The Canada Line literally can't extend past Waterfront because the Expo's in the way.

I wonder how much money it would cost to solve this problem, either changing the Expo or Canada Line.

[officedweller]

For the North Shore crossing study, the straight through option required abandonment of existing Vancouver City Centre and Waterfront Stations for a new deeper alignment to go under Burrard Inlet. ie non-starter.

[LeftCoaster]

The issues is Burrard inlet, not the station though.

Burrard inlet is quite deep at it's deepest (around 60m I think), which just so happens to be on the straight line shot between Lonsdale and Waterfront Station.

It may be feasible to cut the canada line west and go under one of the shallower parts of the harbour but I'm sure that would still be crazy expensive and not on the near or even medium term wish list of Translink.

[logan5]

Or go elevated along the Stanley Park Causeway, and over First Narrows with maybe a dedicated new bridge. Technically a lot easier than tunneling, but politically...

[WarrenC12]

At least there's not much preventing the Expo line from continuing East.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

At least there's not much preventing the Expo line from continuing East.

... or south or both.
After the viaducts come down, you could run an elevated SkyTrain line over the "dip" in the Expo Line guideway
where it currently dips under the viaducts.

The March 1995 BC Transit Report entitled "Summary of Intermediate Capacity Transit System Studies 10 Year Development Plan (1995-2006) in Greater Vancouver" (stemming from the 1993-ish Socred Expansion of SkyTrain) had an option for the Richmond line to start from the Expo tail track at Waterfront.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

At least there's not much preventing the Expo line from continuing East.

The simplest answer is indeed likely the best one.