[Saint John, NB] Lorneville | Spruce Lake Industrial Park Expansion | +1500 acres

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by bingun

I saw this from MLA David 🞵🞵🞵🞵 today. I don't think this is going to do the project any favours.





From some quick research, it seems that solar panels would likely interfere or be challenging to install due to all of the cooling components of the roofs of most of these types of facilities. They can also only meet a fraction of the overall power demand, and setting up a power system to take input from both solar and the grid complicates matters further. A compromise could be them helping to support or fund an off-site solar farm.



Yes, I tried to reason with a few of them, but they seem dead set on the facility being completely automated, with nothing but a few security guards at the gate. I appreciate that this isn't going to be an intense source of local employment, but there will still be a fair few well-paid roles supporting the facility. The more information they can provide on this, the better.

They also seem to think there will be minimal property tax generated, since the computers are not in scope, which is equally frustrating. The property tax benefit of a facility like this could be huge, and the original proposal during the rezoning estimated $3-3.5M. If this is a $2B project instead of $1B, then it could be as high as $6-7M annually, which is 4% of the city's current property tax revenue.

The same people who complain about their property taxes going up every year, the sidewalks not being cleared, and the parks being abandoned or dilapidated will be the ones who refuse to even consider this. Most citizens of the city have no idea of the infastructure deficient we are in, but the city workers and council certainly do.

Lorneville isn’t playing its cards well. The local economy is struggling and the national economy isn’t much better, so their grievances are likely to fall on deaf ears. When people are desperate for progress, obstruction doesn’t win sympathy.

I understand that Lorneville was amalgamated and had land expropriated, and I can empathize with that. But historically, the expropriated land was in the Catholic part of town, and the Orange Order didn’t object. That history of division still shapes the community today.

Lorneville has always been an odd mix of incomes and worldviews, heavily influenced by the Brethren, a group many view as a kind of religious and political cult. Their arguments about conservation and sustainability are weak. They are not protecting old growth forests or wetlands; they are protecting ATV trails. Even the residents must see the absurdity of that, given how conservative and insular the community has always been.

If they want to fight for something meaningful, they should focus on tangible improvements such as water and sewer infrastructure, sidewalks, and a park. Why not push to make the Musquash Estuary a real tourist destination with a paved road to Black Beach and proper facilities? How about an arena? Fix up the lighthouse and turn it into a tourist attraction. Those kinds of projects would create jobs and give people something to be proud of.

Right now their priorities are misplaced. Maybe it is the result of an inherited sense of victimhood, reliving old injustices instead of building something new.

[thefishingnut]

I think any developer expects opposition, dealing with it is just business as usual.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Lorneville isn’t playing its cards well. The local economy is struggling and the national economy isn’t much better, so their grievances are likely to fall on deaf ears. When people are desperate for progress, obstruction doesn’t win sympathy.

I understand that Lorneville was amalgamated and had land expropriated, and I can empathize with that. But historically, the expropriated land was in the Catholic part of town, and the Orange Order didn’t object. That history of division still shapes the community today.

Lorneville has always been an odd mix of incomes and worldviews, heavily influenced by the Brethren, a group many view as a kind of religious and political cult. Their arguments about conservation and sustainability are weak. They are not protecting old growth forests or wetlands; they are protecting ATV trails. Even the residents must see the absurdity of that, given how conservative and insular the community has always been.

If they want to fight for something meaningful, they should focus on tangible improvements such as water and sewer infrastructure, sidewalks, and a park. Why not push to make the Musquash Estuary a real tourist destination with a paved road to Black Beach and proper facilities? How about an arena? Fix up the lighthouse and turn it into a tourist attraction. Those kinds of projects would create jobs and give people something to be proud of.

Right now their priorities are misplaced. Maybe it is the result of an inherited sense of victimhood, reliving old injustices instead of building something new.

Why on earth would the Orange Order ever object to land being expropriated in a Catholic area? ( I assume this was 50-60 years ago when the Catholic-protestant thing was still a big deal in Saint John?)

"The Brethren"? .......seriously? I've lived in Saint John 60+ years and have never heard the term. What's that all about?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Some might argue these divisions have persisted in the Saint John Region hundreds of years later, with Saint John's outer suburbs more WASPY and less Irish than the City of Saint John, but certainly there's been many "Saint John Irish" who've moved out to the Kennebecasis Valley suburbs.


Saint John has sure come a long, long way from stuff like this:


Trouble in the North End:
The Geography of Social Violence in Saint John 1840-1860


The Irish were crammed into ghettos in Saint John, and the city centre's population was far denser than it is today.


I guess way back in the day sectarian violence was so bad between Orangemen and Irish Catholics in Saint John it led to some deaths. Though, I have heard there was a lot of discrimination against Irish Catholics that lingered on for a long time after, and I'd believe it.

Would be interested to hear more from NewIreland on this topic and how it relates to Lorneville, like was this area was a hotbed for the Orange Order or something? I thought I heard it used to be quite an "Irish" way back in history, but maybe I'm misremembering.



Posted this picture on the main board a while ago, but it came to mind with this topic:



Coleson Cove Smokestacks #1 and #2 in the distance. — Lorneville, Saint John, NB (seen from Partridge Island)


While the history of Lorneville is a very interesting topic, perhaps it's better off discussed in a separate thread for Saint John history.

There's a [St. John's, NL] The History of St. John's thread over on the Newfoundland sub forum, perhaps there should be a, "History of Saint John" thread. St. John's history might be slightly longer than Saint John's, but Saint John's history is arguably more dense.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

The Lorneville folks are going to run these guys out of town on a rail. Nothing will ever be built in this industrial park. Proponents will go where their investments are welcome.

Careful, you might give some in the Save Lorneville group false hope about the prospects protesting this proposal.

I really find it something that some in the group were speculating about the gargantuan size of the on site power generation, and even posted a picture of the Bayside Drive Generating Station, as I guess posting a pic of Coleson Cove would have been too ironic?

I really don't see how a proposal like this is going to get shot down, when it has such a gargantuan price tag, and prospect for tax revenue.

The biggest thing is going to be pushing for SNB to give this operation a proper assessment, and do something about taxing "machinery" which makes a property more valuable and power hungry. Other than some sort of equipment tax, indirect emissions tax, or industrial electricity over-usage tax, there will be very little ways to extract tax revenue from this operation other than on a high property assessment from SNB. The city should be actively lobbying the province and to pass comprehensive tax reform that will allow the city to tax certain operations at a higher tax rate if they are deemed to have substantial utilities, pollution, environmental risks.

Instead of clinging to the small chance city of province will have a change of heart, Saint Johners (including Lornevillers) should be focussing on a response that focusses on the provincial government pursuing actual, comprehensive tax reform, and not just a bunch of half measures, as many of us are likely expecting them to pass and call it tax reform. People should focus on getting the proponents to make some big commitments to the community of Lorneville and the city of Saint John, and stop focussing on the small chance the whole project will be deep-sixed.

If the proponents are looking to invest $2 billion in this project, then they're certainly expecting to make a lot more money than that in the long run. We'll likely to get a lot more with honey than vinegar in this situation, especially the community of Lorneville which will be hosting this data centre.

I suggest as many city residents as possible reach out to the companies involved in this data center project and make it clear that there's a far more diverse range of opinions on this project in this city than the opinions and views shared by the community of Lorneville.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

• Video Link

From CBC Information Morning Saint John:

A data centre could soon come to the Spruce Lake Industrial Park

We spoke with ward 1 councillor Greg Norton and heard from Adam Wilkins, one of the leaders of the Save Lorneville community group.

Thanks to the Save Lorneville group for recording the interview.

Their group admin posted this along with the CBC interview.

On Friday, Councilor Greg Norton spoke with CBC about the BeaconAI & VoltaGrid natural gas powered AI Data Centre proposed for the Spruce Lake Industrial Park expansion.
It’s very interesting to note that Council did not want to hear the public speak about the EIA throughout the rezoning/redesignation Public Hearing process, but now Council is putting all of their focus on an EIA to allow a power and water hungry data centre to be built at the destruction of hundreds of acres of mature forest, wetlands, an old growth forest, and a bouncy bog, 150m from residential properties.
Councilor Norton stated that the community of Lorneville is most important as the host community. We certainly haven’t been treated fairly or even as “important” throughout this entire 16-month process, it’d be shocking to see that change now.
Thanks to InfoAM SJ host Emily Brass for pushing back and challenging Councilor Norton!
This evening, City Council will meet with BeaconAI & VoltaGrid behind closed doors to discuss the proposed business.
Reminder: Public meeting Wednesday November 5 from 5 – 8pm.

[sailor734]

Lots of unanswered questions still. I was listening to a story on AI and Data centres on CBC this morning. One point was that they aren't huge job creators or economic engines for a community. Basically a giant warehouse filled with computers most run with a staff of about 50 or so.

Nice bump to the city's tax base but not a game changer the way 2 billion spent to open a new plant employing hundreds or thousands plus would be. The expert interviewed for the story used a car plant as an example.

Obviously this would be a plus to the SJ economy but not a once in a lifetime game changer.

[bingun]

So the city council are getting a non-public presentation from the proponent today. I wonder if that will differ from the public meeting tomorrow. Greg said he had met with them before, but only briefly and in an introductory capacity. I am not sure I believe that.

Originally Posted by sailor734

Lots of unanswered questions still. I was listening to a story on AI and Data centres on CBC this morning. One point was that they aren't huge job creators or economic engines for a community. Basically a giant warehouse filled with computers most run with a staff of about 50 or so.

Nice bump to the city's tax base but not a game changer the way 2 billion spent to open a new plant employing hundreds or thousands plus would be. The expert interviewed for the story used a car plant as an example.

Obviously this would be a plus to the SJ economy but not a once in a lifetime game changer.

I think that's a valid criticism, but I also don't believe the data centre is claiming to be a major driver of direct employment. The slide included as part of the rezoning was clear on build-out and permanent jobs and wasn't far off from the estimates I have seen.

Yes, we can say, 'Oh, a car plant would be better,' or the suggestion I saw on Reddit of a 'furniture factory' , but that doesn't mean those things are realistically going to be proposed or economically viable.

I firmly believe we have to consider the options in front of us and not hold out for the perfect choice. In today's economic environment, things could turn sour further, leaving us with no interest or options at all.

The property taxes are the primary benefit to the community, and that is what Councillor Norton and others should focus on if they are trying to support the proposal. If you can say to the community that your property taxes will drop by X or that we can increase services without property tax rises, there will be support.

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Lots of unanswered questions still. I was listening to a story on AI and Data centres on CBC this morning. One point was that they aren't huge job creators or economic engines for a community. Basically a giant warehouse filled with computers most run with a staff of about 50 or so.

Nice bump to the city's tax base but not a game changer the way 2 billion spent to open a new plant employing hundreds or thousands plus would be. The expert interviewed for the story used a car plant as an example.

Obviously this would be a plus to the SJ economy but not a once in a lifetime game changer.

You are correct this is not necessarily a game changer, however it is definitely a huge positive for the region, and these are the types of projects you need to be successful at in order to bring in the larger ones.

I am seeing very very little private investment around NB these days outside of the Port of Saint John, seeing all this additional investment in Saint John will keep the momentum going.

Try and be a little more positive, Saint John is on a major roll.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

You are correct this is not necessarily a game changer, however it is definitely a huge positive for the region, and these are the types of projects you need to be successful at in order to bring in the larger ones.

I am seeing very very little private investment around NB these days outside of the Port of Saint John, seeing all this additional investment in Saint John will keep the momentum going.

Try and be a little more positive, Saint John is on a major roll.

Don't get me wrong. This is positive and the significant (I hope) tax revenue will be more than welcome at city hall I'm sure. I was just getting the impression that some people think this is a bigger deal in terms of Saint John's economy than it actually is. My comment was an attempt to inject a bit of reality. This very good news but isn't the second coming of the frigate program with 3,000+ highly paid workers at the drydock or a second refinery.

[sailor734]

I wonder if there will be much media coverage tomorrow about the open house tonight in Lorneville? Anybody thinking of going?

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I wonder if there will be much media coverage tomorrow about the open house tonight in Lorneville? Anybody thinking of going?

I wanted to, but I have another commitment. Based on seeing coverage from CBC, CTV, Global, and the TJ, we can be certain there will be plenty of media coverage. I believe the CEO also said he would be willing to do an interview after the public meeting has taken place.

[bingun]

I will post my reply in this thread for clarity.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

[IMG] create image album and share[/IMG]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

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Thanks for posting the images so quickly.

It is now more evident that the size of this project is roughly double what was initially presented as part of the rezoning, both in terms of dollars and employment. If we translate this into municipal tax dollars, we could be looking at more than $6M.

I think the image also clears up the confusion between 120 acres and 120 hectares. The site as a whole is 120 hectares (300 acres), but the data centre facility is only 120 acres of that.

The location of the power generation is also wise, right by the road, as far away from the residential properties as possible. The area to the south of the site is the part of the rezoned land that is most difficult to develop and is likely to remain untouched, along with the brook, which creates a larger buffer with the residential properties to the south.

Potential use case for Canadian Forces Base Gagetown - that is interesting. Was there any further explanation on what that means? Housing cloud applications for the Canadian Military as a whole, on home soil for security and sovereignty reasons, perhaps?

Was there any mention of the cooling systems proposed?

[sailor734]

^ There has been recent talk by the Feds about "AI Sovereignty". 925m in the budget .

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-budget-quantum-ai-computing-9.6966549

I think CDNGuys mentioned closed loop glycol cooling in the SJ thread. I assume fresh water would be used in some sort of heat exchanger.

A little confusing talking about this project in two threads simultaneously.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

^ There has been recent talk by the Feds about "AI Sovereignty". 925m in the budget .

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-budget-quantum-ai-computing-9.6966549

I think CDNGuys mentioned closed loop glycol cooling in the SJ thread. I assume fresh water would be used in some sort of heat exchanger.

A little confusing talking about this project in two threads simultaneously.

I assume there's going to be a lot to be said, both good and bad, about this data centre project and other developments related to the Spruce Lake Industrial Park expansion, so expect spillover

Though, it would be good to keep this thread about developments at the industrial park, and less about local gossip, but I'm not one to tell people where and how to post... just hope people can remain civil when discussing this controversial development with the data centre. .

Zooming in on the picture of the data centre proposal, (with one windmill in frame for reference) One thing immediate came to mind...




... and that is why does this facility does not have a white roof?

A light or white coloured roof is such a simple solution for keeping the ambient of the building down, and helps fight global warming.

I did not yet watch all of the open house video, but I did notice David 🞵🞵🞵🞵 wasn't really able to ask a lot of questions and left early. I would have at least thought he'd have asked one question about the dark coloured roof on a facility with high cost cooling and refrigeration needs, but perhaps he had to go somewhere early, or someone else asked that question?

Regardless, I'll be sure to email the proponent and/or Stantec and ask what's up with the dark roof?!

Same goes with some proposals for recreational developments. If Beacon AI and VoltaGrid are going to be investing billions in this facility that needs to keep cool to make them many more billions... they could help keep half a dozen across the Saint John Region chilled and refrigerated, including one in the community of Lorneville, with a view of the sea.

An Outdoor hockey rink and other outdoor recreational facilities would be great projects to help fill in the buffer zone and create a greater sense of separation between the Lorneville community and the industrial park, which the residents deserve.

[bingun]

CTV and CBC are working overtime to get articles up this morning.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/spruce-lake-data-centre-9.6968841

https://www.ctvnews.ca/atlantic/new-brun...ohn-data-centre-hear-residents-concerns/

It will be fueled by an on-site, natural-gas generating system. This, according to Ough, “will generate about half of the power consumption of the data centre, really mitigating any grid disruption risks.” He also said the facility will consume nearly zero water.

Residents said this doesn’t square with the promise that came with expansion: that it would only be open to non-emitting projects. Ough said the plant would use what he called a “reactive catalyst” that would essentially eliminate pollutants.

“We're committing to 98 per cent emissions abatement on the site, which would be the cleanest burning natural gas power plant in Canada,” he said.

Ough and Shovlin said the data centre will use what's called a “closed-loop system” — a cooling system that needs liquid, which would manage the heat caused by equipment in the data centre.

Neither could say how much water this loop would use, but said they would provide the information as part of the environmental impact assessment process.

Ough said there are no plans to expand the data centre in the future.

[Pugsley]

This is pure "NB-ism" - as I like to call it. That stank attitude many here have after years of being let-down by politicians, being promised big jobs that never arrived, and as a result - being paranoid and skeptical of anything and everyone. A culture where the people here don't believe a word anyone says and simply agree with the loudest person who has a problem. A mob mentality where they can release their overall disdain and unhappiness with life in general towards something, simply to be heard - like St. Andrews and the Wharf, Save Lorneville, etc.

I'll bet you the same people who don't want this data centre often complain that the Irvings have too much of a hold on the local economy. They likely talk smack over dinner or a BBQ about how they are the only options in town for work, how terrible it is, and how unfair life is, etc. Then when another company, and a local at that, tries to provide a bit of diversity work-wise.. they reject that as well.

They will NEVER be happy, so don't try. And I know that what I am going to say sounds brutal, but it is the truth. These "NB-ists" only react to one thing, and that is to call them out on their nonsense and be smarter than them. And if that doesn't work, tell them that you will take legal action. They'll go back to their rumbling in their homes, with neighbours, over an Alpine, and move onto something else to complain about.

But if you acknowledge them or pander to them, you are screwed.

[JakeNB]

Nathan Ough is quickly becoming the most vilified person in NB. The Save Lorneville Facebook page has quickly become a cesspool of hate toward this guy. Unfortunate.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Nathan Ough is quickly becoming the most vilified person in NB. The Save Lorneville Facebook page has quickly become a cesspool of hate toward this guy. Unfortunate.

While it is probably unfair, that is what you sign up for when you become the CEO of a company like that. The high compensation isn't for nothing.

The quote below sums up the absolutist position of many residents. They aren't willing to accept any compromise.

Shovlin asked what residents consider fair community compensation. The two were not given a figure, with some saying the best compensation would be for the project to not go forward.

“I think the fair amount is our wetland intact and our ancient 400-year-old trees left standing,” Alexander said to applause.

“You can't replace these. You can't replace our quality of life. You can't replace the use of hiking trails and quiet oceanside community. You will not replace that."

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Nathan Ough is quickly becoming the most vilified person in NB. The Save Lorneville Facebook page has quickly become a cesspool of hate toward this guy. Unfortunate.

I know what you mean but think that's a bit of an overstatement. I get the impression the Save Lorneville bunch are very loud and very active but also a relatively insignificant group numbering at most a few hundred.

I suspect this type of reaction from a small group of local activists is par for the course for this type of project wherever it is proposed.