[Saint John, NB] Lorneville | Spruce Lake Industrial Park Expansion | +1500 acres

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I think you're kind of missing the point that the existing community has been making about not wanting a loss of natural area and a change to the community's character.

Adding more development into a "barrier" [buffer] is antithetical to their asks.

I get that, but I'm just thinking about what could make the most effective barrier or "buffer" between the existing community and the expanding industrial park? I assume they're far more concerned about industrial expansions than residential/mixed used developments?

A row of 6 storey apartments could be a pretty effective barrier adding to the separation between the industrial park and existing community. They could also be useful, mixed use developments that bring more services and useful retail locations for the people of Lorneville.

It might seem antithetical to their asks, but such developments could end up being effective buffers between the existing community and expanding industrial park. Moreover, increasing the density of the Lorneville population could bring in services never seen before, like bus service, or maybe even water and sewage one day.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

The latest from the Save Lorneville group -

I see they also have a GoFundMe set up.

I admire their commitment to the cause, I just hope they're prepared to be disappointed. Moreover, I hope they can find other ways to stick up for their community and advocate for the city and province to make some major resident focussed investments in their seaside community.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I see they also have a GoFundMe set up.

I admire their commitment to the cause, I just hope they're prepared to be disappointed. Moreover, I hope they can find other ways to stick up for their community and advocate for the city and province to make some major resident focussed investments in their seaside community.

They don't hold any grudges against city council.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I get that, but I'm just thinking about what could make the most effective barrier or "buffer" between the existing community and the expanding industrial park? I assume they're far more concerned about industrial expansions than residential/mixed used developments?

A row of 6 storey apartments could be a pretty effective barrier adding to the separation between the industrial park and existing community. They could also be useful, mixed use developments that bring more services and useful retail locations for the people of Lorneville.

It might seem antithetical to their asks, but such developments could end up being effective buffers between the existing community and expanding industrial park. Moreover, increasing the density of the Lorneville population could bring in services never seen before, like bus service, or maybe even water and sewage one day.

You're really not getting it. Thinking they would prefer that a wetland be destroyed by 6 story apartment buildings or some place to go shop rather than be destroyed by a data center is not at all why they are fighting.

Some people don't want to live in a city. They live in Lorneville because they don't want mixed use developments, retail locations, and more people. If they wanted all that 🞵🞵🞵🞵, they'd live in the city.

[adamuptownsj]

Lorneville residents live beside Coleson Cove Generating Station, which is 50 years old, and an industrial park that's slightly older than that. Lorneville has been inside city limits for almost 60 years.

[MonctonPerson]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

You're really not getting it. Thinking they would prefer that a wetland be destroyed by 6 story apartment buildings or some place to go shop rather than be destroyed by a data center is not at all why they are fighting.

Some people don't want to live in a city. They live in Lorneville because they don't want mixed use developments, retail locations, and more people. If they wanted all that 🞵🞵🞵🞵, they'd live in the city.

Wonder when they'll realize they live in a city?

[bingun]

In another post I saw, they confirmed the apparent proponents for the data centre.

It has recently come to light that Beacon AI and VoltaGrid are partnering to develop a large data-center complex within the proposed expansion area.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

In another post I saw, they confirmed the apparent proponents for the data centre.

Makes sense. Voltagrid's President and CEO Nathan Ough is a native saint Johner.

[thefishingnut]

Perhaps my description of live in the city is misrepresenting the boundaries - but there is a difference between living in Lorneville and living on the Pennisula in terms of expectations of development and preservation of green space. I'm not a Lorneville resident, but do have some empathy for why they oppose the development.

Main thing that hits me every time I go through the current industrial park, is how underutilized the current space is, with such broad areas between buildings. Scorched earth and then leave most of it empty.

[gtsoc]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Some people don't want to live in a city.

Then why did they decide to live in Saint John when they purchased where they did?

They live in a City ... if they want peace, tranquility and no change they can hop the ferry and go live in Kingston. When you decide to live in a city (industrial, at that) then you have to expect there will be change at some point.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Makes sense. Voltagrid's President and CEO Nathan Ough is a native Saint Johner.

From the Save Lorneville Facebook group


Looks like what you heard a while back was bang on. The use of on site power-generation sounds like it could help deal with power grid issues that many people have brought up already.

Don't see anything about the water side of things in this letter, but that is going to be a top concern with this development for the residents of Lorneville.

I'm not sure the radius this letter was handed out to, or who this Public Open House will be open to on November, but I expect there will be a very large public turnout.

[DyAm00394]

This letter was shared on the “Save Lorneville” FB page:

[sailor734]

Yep, I've heard this being talked about for a couple of months now. Water consumption and a constant low hum would appear to be two of the big questions. Those are data centre issues I've seen raised.....not sure about any issues surrounding the modular natural gas generating plant but I suspect it would be a lot cleaner and more efficient than Coleson Cove.

[sailor734]

CBC story on the Data Center proposal

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/data-centre-saint-john-industrial-park-9.6960550


Interesting that there is mention of using sea water from the bay for cooling. From what I have read about these centers they require fresh water for cooling. New technology changing that maybe?

[bingun]

Perhaps it is just me, but a week's notice for the public session seems quite short, but I am glad to see them take the initiative. There certainly seems to be momentum behind this.

I don't usually attend meetings like this outside of projects in my neighbourhood or things that directly affect me, but I am very tempted to go to this one to learn more. However, I do fear it could turn into a shouting match if enough Lorneville residents turn up. Hopefully, they've planned ahead.

Reading the letter closely, there is some interesting information. 120 Hectares is considerably larger than what was revealed during the rezoning presentation for a potential data centre. At that time, it was described as needing 120 Acres. 120 Hectares is roughly 300 Acres, so 2.5 times as large.

The completed rezoning added about 300 hectares to heavy industrial. From my recollection of the presentations, a fair portion of this probably isn't practical to develop in the first place, so I would say this is roughly half of the newly available land.

The reference to a 190 MW power system is also interesting. When I researched this a few months ago, I estimated the power draw would be roughly 100MW, which also reinforces the idea that this proposal is significantly larger than first thought. It also suggests they could power the whole facility with their own generation. For reference, 190 MW is close to 6% of NB Power's peak winter power demand, so it is not insignificant.

It will be interesting to see them explain when they will rely on the grid and when they will rely on their generation capabilities. Perhaps they could negotiate a deal with NB Power to use the grid at lower-peak times at a reduced rate, then switch to their own generation during peak times. This would be a win-win for the data centre and NB Power in my eyes. I am also curious how they plan to supply the gas. Do the existing gas lines run close to the industrial park?

The saltwater-based cooling, however, is a strange inclusion in the CBC article. While it is possible, it is considerably more complex and expensive than freshwater cooling, and I understand one of the key advantages of Saint John is its freshwater supply. It will be interesting to see if they reveal more about this in the public information session and whether it's just an idea or something they are seriously pursuing.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Makes sense. Voltagrid's President and CEO Nathan Ough is a native saint Johner.

I guess he's not actually a native Saint Johner, but rather a Rothesayite.

Nonetheless, it's good to see that he hasn't forgotten where he came from, and wants to bring a major investment to this region.

Originally Posted by bingun

Perhaps it is just me, but a week's notice for the public session seems quite short, but I am glad to see them take the initiative. There certainly seems to be momentum behind this.

I don't usually attend meetings like this outside of projects in my neighbourhood or things that directly affect me, but I am very tempted to go to this one to learn more. However, I do fear it could turn into a shouting match if enough Lorneville residents turn up. Hopefully, they've planned ahead.

Reading the letter closely, there is some interesting information. 120 Hectares is considerably larger than what was revealed during the rezoning presentation for a potential data centre. At that time, it was described as needing 120 Acres. 120 Hectares is roughly 300 Acres, so 2.5 times as large.

The completed rezoning added about 300 hectares to heavy industrial. From my recollection of the presentations, a fair portion of this probably isn't practical to develop in the first place, so I would say this is roughly half of the newly available land.

The reference to a 190 MW power system is also interesting. When I researched this a few months ago, I estimated the power draw would be roughly 100MW, which also reinforces the idea that this proposal is significantly larger than first thought. It also suggests they could power the whole facility with their own generation. For reference, 190 MW is close to 6% of NB Power's peak winter power demand, so it is not insignificant.

It will be interesting to see them explain when they will rely on the grid and when they will rely on their generation capabilities. Perhaps they could negotiate a deal with NB Power to use the grid at lower-peak times at a reduced rate, then switch to their own generation during peak times. This would be a win-win for the data centre and NB Power in my eyes. I am also curious how they plan to supply the gas. Do the existing gas lines run close to the industrial park?

The saltwater-based cooling, however, is a strange inclusion in the CBC article. While it is possible, it is considerably more complex and expensive than freshwater cooling, and I understand one of the key advantages of Saint John is its freshwater supply. It will be interesting to see if they reveal more about this in the public information session and whether it's just an idea or something they are seriously pursuing.

It is pretty short notice, but I think they've seen quite a lot of misinformation and speculation about the developments posted online, and want to deal with that. Plus, it's not like they can't hold more than one open house. Though, I'm not sure they will want to if this one gets too heated.

I may attend myself, as it's quite an interesting proposal and I'm interested how this seawater cooling piece might work. Moreover, if this facility is going to be as big as many are speculating, it would probably have a lot of roof space that could be covered in solar panels. I understand on site natural gas power generation is more reliable than solar, but there could still be tremendous potential for solar power if the building is as big as many believe it will be.

Also, many people on the Save Lorneville Group and other SJ social media pages have brought up how this facility will provide few long term jobs other than security guards, some maintenance workers, IT people, etc... So I'd like to ask what this company is willing to contribute to the community and Saint John Region as a whole beyond the few long terms jobs and beyond their property tax contributions.

Maybe they could invest in a public outdoor hockey rink in Lorneville with a chiller, and/or other recreational investments.

The total investment into this facility could be upwards of $2 billion, so perhaps they could be convinced to invest a few million into some resident focussed developments for the surrounding community and region, since they won't exactly be providing many long term jobs. SNB better assess the value of this development properly.

[jonny golden]

Moreover, if this facility is going to be as big as many are speculating, it would probably have a lot of roof space that could be covered in solar panels. I understand on site natural gas power generation is more reliable than solar, but there could still be tremendous potential for solar power if the building is as big as many believe it will be.

Good point, especially since solar has seen major technological advancements over the last 10 years. Panel efficiency has increased by 60% over that time, and battery technology has also significantly improved.

[bingun]

I saw this from MLA David 🞵🞵🞵🞵 today. I don't think this is going to do the project any favours.

The Wall Street Journal (WSJ) reports that VoltaGrid’s CEO, New Brunswick native Nathan Ough, “plays matchmaker between Big Tech and Big Oil.” Ough “is the rare Canadian to voice support for Trump,” referring to the president’s embrace of fossil fuels and cutting red tape for data centre development as a boon for VoltaGrid. According to the WSJ, the VoltaGrid CEO “cultivates relationships with Trump allies and makes frequent appearances on conservative media channels—some which have compared him with Elon Musk.”
“Trump gets up there and says, ‘drill, baby, drill’ and ‘data center.’ Those are literally the intersection of our entire existence. … I just want to build 🞵🞵🞵🞵 in America.”
The WSJ reports that when Ough lobbies lawmakers in Washington, D.C., he hands out lapel pins that read “DATA CENTERS LOVE LOW CARBON FOSSIL FUELS.” In March, Ough hosted executives from ExxonMobil, ConocoPhillips and Halliburton, senior staff and engineers from data centre developers, and Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Wheatley at his Houston home. Ough also flies tech executives to West Texas oil fields to visit VoltaGrid sites. The company will spend more than US$1 billion over the next 12 to 16 months building fossil gas power plants for data centres and other customers. As part of his appreciation for the Trump administration’s support for fossil fuels, Ough recently donated nearly US$110,000 to the Republican National Committee and plans to travel to Trump’s Mar-a-Lago resort in the coming weeks. He wants the Trump administration, which has pulled the U.S. out of the Paris Agreement, to “let his company build a (gas-fired) electricity empire in the U.S.”

I may attend myself, as it's quite an interesting proposal and I'm interested how this seawater cooling piece might work. Moreover, if this facility is going to be as big as many are speculating, it would probably have a lot of roof space that could be covered in solar panels. I understand on site natural gas power generation is more reliable than solar, but there could still be tremendous potential for solar power if the building is as big as many believe it will be.

From some quick research, it seems that solar panels would likely interfere or be challenging to install due to all of the cooling components of the roofs of most of these types of facilities. They can also only meet a fraction of the overall power demand, and setting up a power system to take input from both solar and the grid complicates matters further. A compromise could be them helping to support or fund an off-site solar farm.

Also, many people on the Save Lorneville Group and other SJ social media pages have brought up how this facility will provide few long term jobs other than security guards, some maintenance workers, IT people, etc... So I'd like to ask what this company is willing to contribute to the community and Saint John Region as a whole beyond the few long terms and beyond their property tax contribution.

Yes, I tried to reason with a few of them, but they seem dead set on the facility being completely automated, with nothing but a few security guards at the gate. I appreciate that this isn't going to be an intense source of local employment, but there will still be a fair few well-paid roles supporting the facility. The more information they can provide on this, the better.

They also seem to think there will be minimal property tax generated, since the computers are not in scope, which is equally frustrating. The property tax benefit of a facility like this could be huge, and the original proposal during the rezoning estimated $3-3.5M. If this is a $2B project instead of $1B, then it could be as high as $6-7M annually, which is 4% of the city's current property tax revenue.

The same people who complain about their property taxes going up every year, the sidewalks not being cleared, and the parks being abandoned or dilapidated will be the ones who refuse to even consider this. Most citizens of the city have no idea of the infastructure deficient we are in, but the city workers and council certainly do.

[JakeNB]

The Lorneville folks are going to run these guys out of town on a rail. Nothing will ever be built in this industrial park. Proponents will go where their investments are welcome.

[Sabien]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

The Lorneville folks are going to run these guys out of town on a rail. Nothing will ever be built in this industrial park. Proponents will go where their investments are welcome.

No, they’ll go wherever is most profitable. Being welcomed would be nice, but it’s not at all a requirement. Their reps will be prepared and bring their thick skin with them.