Canadian cities that should have been bigger than they actually are?

[MolsonExport]

I love the discussion and photos that this thread has generated. It's like old times on SSP.

[Nouvellecosse]

Looks like Kingston would be an interesting visit.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder if Prince Rupert would have grown a lot larger if it had become a more important railway terminus, or if the Lower Mainland would have eventually won out anyway. Probably the latter, since there are just so many more accessible resources around the Lower Mainland and southeast BC, and people simply would want to live there more.

Everyone has a different preference for weather but, for me, Prince Rupert has a worse climate than any major city (>100k) in Canada. I think that only the Arctic would be worse. Some stats:

- There is no month with less than 100 mm of precipitation, which is what Vancouver gets in March
- The warmest month, August, has a daily maximum mean of 17C and a daily mean of 13.8; this is about the same as Vancouver in May
- The 1,258 hours of sunshine Prince Rupert gets per year is 35% less than Vancouver. Prince Rupert's sunniest month, May, is somewhere between a Vancouver March and April in terms of sunlight.

[MonctonRad]

There could be a corollary thread - "Canadian Cities That Are Larger Than They Were Supposed To Be".

The classic Maritime example of this is Moncton. In NB, Saint John was the original city, and the major port. Fredericton was the capital city, and the home of the provincial university. Both cities were well established by the mid 19th century, but, at the same time, Moncton was little more than a farming village.

Fate interceded however, first with industrial growth thanks to a successful shipyard, then, thanks to geographic advantage (being close to the Chignecto Isthmus), the community became a railway hub, and began to grow exponentially.

Now Moncton is the largest city in NB, and the CMA is verging on 200,000 people. This was not planned. The city just exploited it's advantages and became more important than anyone 200 years ago could have foreseen.

What other cities nationwide fit this sort of scenario.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There could be a corollary thread - "Canadian Cities That Are Larger Than They Were Supposed To Be".

The classic Maritime example of this is Moncton. In NB, Saint John was the original city, and the major port. Fredericton was the capital city, and the home of the provincial university. Both cities were well established by the mid 19th century, but, at the same time, Moncton was little more than a farming village.

Fate interceded however, first with industrial growth thanks to a successful shipyard, then, thanks to geographic advantage (being close to the Chignecto Isthmus), the community became a railway hub, and began to grow exponentially.

Now Moncton is the largest city in NB, and the CMA is verging on 200,000 people. This was not planned. The city just exploited it's advantages and became more important than anyone 200 years ago could have foreseen.

What other cities nationwide fit this sort of scenario.

When the CN shops closed in the mid 1980's, that could have been the death knell for Moncton. Rather, the region has done an excellent job in re-positioning itself and taking advantage of its location.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Looks like Kingston would be an interesting visit.

After Toronto and Ottawa, Kingston is probably the third most "visitable" city in Ontario IMO, for things SSP people like.

I wouldn't say it's in the same league, but it's in the same family of cities as Halifax or Victoria - vibrant, historic, coastal cities shaped by their relationship to water, with a mix of old, landmark buildings and dense new developments, and much more vibrant downtowns than their size would suggest.

Kingston, both in its age and its surroundings, feels kind of Maritime-y.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

When the CN shops closed in the mid 1980's, that could have been the death knell for Moncton. Rather, the region has done an excellent job in re-positioning itself and taking advantage of its location.

Indeed.

Moncton has had three near death experiences:

1) 1755 - Acadian deportation. Original town site abandoned after the French inhabitants were expelled.
2) 1862 - Salter Shipyard closes. Town bankrupted and loses it's civic charter/
3) 1985-90 - CN Shops, Eaton's catalogue centre and CFB Moncton all closed. Literally thousands thrown out of work.

The city of Moncton's motto is "resurgo" (I rise again).

The name of the city should really be Phoenix,

[giallo]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There could be a corollary thread - "Canadian Cities That Are Larger Than They Were Supposed To Be"

This would be a good thread, too.

Kelowna is the poster child for a city that outgrew itself. It was never supposed to be more than a small agricultural hamlet. They designed (if you can call it that) the roads for 50,000 people. I'm not sure there's a city between 250,000-500,000 people in Canada that has worse traffic than Kelowna. Hwy 97/Harvey is absolutely brutal to get across. A traffic gauntlet.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

After Toronto and Ottawa, Kingston is probably the third most "visitable" city in Ontario IMO, for things SSP people like.

I wouldn't say it's in the same league, but it's in the same family of cities as Halifax or Victoria - vibrant, historic, coastal cities shaped by their relationship to water, with a mix of old, landmark buildings and dense new developments, and much more vibrant downtowns than their size would suggest.

Kingston, both in its age and its surroundings, feels kind of Maritime-y.

Agreed.

I'd argue that its the most livable City in Ontario too. It has most of the conveniences of a small city but offers far more big city amenities than one would expect (walkable vibrant downtown, restaurants, quality hospitals, museums, etc). Its location is also amazing: hours by train to Union Station, two hours by train to Ottawa, 2.5 hours by train, one hour drive to wine country in Prince Edward County.

The only livability issue is the cost of housing (which is very high for such a small city).

Here's a few more photos:



SOURCE: https://www.kingstonist.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/KingstonAerial-CoK_Instagram.jpg



SOURCE: https://i.redd.it/gdmwyl34edie1.jpeg



SOURCE: https://cdn.realtor.ca/listing/TS638942196968430000/reb37/highres/4/x12420894_1.jpg



SOURCE: https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fodors....14fa42116769abfd27199fb86715187e834.jpeg

Queen's campus (in the heart of the city):



SOURCE: https://www.queensu.ca/gazette/sites/gazettewww/files/2025-10/DJI_20241016172659_0717_D-HDR.png

Kingston Penitentiary (also in the heart of the city):



SOURCE: https://kingstonconcretepros.ca/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/116-1024x779.png

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

KWC gets the LRT, endless highway widening, and a freeway through the town.

London? some lousy BRT.

Isn't that because of local opposition to the original LRT plan and city council cancelling it? Sometimes a city can only blame itself for its misfortune.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by giallo

This would be a good thread, too.

Kelowna is the poster child for a city that outgrew itself. It was never supposed to be more than a small agricultural hamlet. They designed (if you can call it that) the roads for 50,000 people. I'm not sure there's a city between 250,000-500,000 people in Canada that has worse traffic than Kelowna. Hwy 97/Harvey is absolutely brutal to get across. A traffic gauntlet.

Harvey Avenue was absolutely horrendous when I lived north of Kelowna in the early 90s. I can't imagine how bad it must be now. The last time I was in Kelowna (2009), the traffic along Harvey Avenue was awful.

And just like Jake La Motta (Robert de Niro) in Raging Bull (with respect to his first wife's subpar cooking), you've got no choice. It is really the only North-South arterial road for Kelowna.

[Nouvellecosse]

The only problem with a "Canadian Cities That Are Larger Than They Were Supposed To Be" thread is the risk that just like this thread where people are also answering what cities they'd like to be bigger, that thread would also have people mentioning cities they wish were smaller. Perhaps because they don't like the city's architecture, setting, the amount of sprawl, or whatever. And that... would lead to fights. Typical SSP, but not in a good way lol.

[TorontoDrew]

Until posting Kingston here, I never really gave that town much thought. It looks like it might be a nice weekend getaway to explore. I also get a maritime vibe from it, somewhere between a New England Town and a Quebec village in terms of style and architecture.

[irisheyes]

Kingston, ON is really quite spectacular. Perhaps a city that has actually reached its potential in many ways.

But Moncton, NB lol. The overgrown Truro. Moncton did not exist until the mid 1800s as a town but ever since the 1960s has largely been a story of pork-barrel political spending and a major thorn in Saint John's side. What happens over the next century will be interesting as Saint John has finally begun to rebound.


---> https://www.919thebend.ca/2023/07/20/groundbreaking-for-700m-federal-science-centre/

[MonkeyRonin]

They might be more of a could have than a should have, but both Kingston and Niagara-on-the-Lake were originally poised to be much bigger than they are today. They would have been Ontario's preeminent cities until Toronto leaped past them in the early 1800s. Today they certainly still have a more impressive building stock than their current size & prominence would suggest.

[Doady]

^Windsor a really old city overall too.

Toronto didn't become a major port as originally envisioned, and much of the port has been converted and continues to be converted to residential and commercial uses.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Great points, and I also think if Canadian Pacific chose the Yellowhead Pass route instead of Kicking Horse via Calgary, Edmonton would have grown even faster, earlier on. It's much older than Calgary, founded in 1795 vs. 1875, and with that early growth, in addition to becoming the Capital and the centre of the Alberta oil industry, it would be much larger than Calgary, today.

I think your numbers are off. Edmonton was founded in 1892 and Calgary in 1884. Unless youre counting when they were just outposts for the Hudson Bay Company and NWMP respectively. Most Western Canadian cities started that way but doesnt mean thats when they were founded. Winnipeg for example had an official founding in 1873 but European forts had existed there since at least 1738 and there was European presence from the late 17th century on.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by irisheyes

But Moncton, NB lol. The overgrown Truro. Moncton did not exist until the mid 1800s as a town but ever since the 1960s has largely been a story of pork-barrel political spending and a major thorn in Saint John's side. What happens over the next century will be interesting as Saint John has finally begun to rebound.

Spoken like a true Saint Johner.

A lot of people from that fair city (certainly not all) have chips on their shoulders the size of Douglas Fir logs regarding Moncton (and to some degree Fredericton as well). We have somehow stolen Saint John's potential and sucked all the oxygen out of their airspace.

I don't disagree however that Moncton is an "overgrown Truro." This is an apt comparison. The difference is that Truro has remained firmly in Halifax's orbit, while Moncton has reached a stature where it has it's own hinterland in eastern and northern NB, extending into Cumberland County NS.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The classic Maritime example of this is Moncton. In NB, Saint John was the original city, and the major port. Fredericton was the capital city, and the home of the provincial university. Both cities were well established by the mid 19th century, but, at the same time, Moncton was little more than a farming village.

Moncton still has understandable geography though. It's just geography that became important after the transition from solely using ships to the railways. If you are going to NS or PEI, you pretty much have to go through there as there aren't crossings farther down the Petitcodiac. But it's true that maybe it could have been more of a Truro-like city.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't disagree however that Moncton is an "overgrown Truro." This is an apt comparison. The difference is that Truro has remained firmly in Halifax's orbit, while Moncton has reached a stature where it has it's own hinterland in eastern and northern NB, extending into Cumberland County NS.

And there is clearly a corridor attracting most growth in the region that runs from Halifax up to Moncton and includes some nearby areas that account for, for example, a lot of the farmland in the whole region. It must account for a large portion of the total economic growth in the region in recent decades (the rest might even be in negative territory).

Moncton seems to have a growth model similar to Calgary or Edmonton with lots of suburban growth. It's not necessarily that sexy but I'm happy some places in Canada remain relatively affordable.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

After Toronto and Ottawa, Kingston is probably the third most "visitable" city in Ontario IMO, for things SSP people like.

I wouldn't say it's in the same league, but it's in the same family of cities as Halifax or Victoria - vibrant, historic, coastal cities shaped by their relationship to water, with a mix of old, landmark buildings and dense new developments, and much more vibrant downtowns than their size would suggest.

Kingston, both in its age and its surroundings, feels kind of Maritime-y.

Don't forget the University culture of Both Queen's and RMC.