Transit Fantasies

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yeah, I just picked the most remote thing I could remember off the top of my head. Should've gone with Tofino or Sechelt.

Point is, don't expect a European-scale anything above the 40th parallel: too much land + too few people = no mass transit = cars.

Originally Posted by chowhou

Roads and highways are also hard to charge pay-for-use, but the gas tax is supposed to be a form of taxation in that way. We used to have tolls on certain bridges to pay for their use, but a certain government got rid of them unfortunately.

That said, roads are also heavily subsidized. Nobody should see $8 fares unless gas is also ~$10/litre.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Yeah, I just picked the most remote thing I could remember off the top of my head. Should've gone with Tofino or Sechelt.

Point is, don't expect a European-scale anything above the 40th parallel: too much land + too few people = no mass transit = cars.

Counterpoint: If Finland, Sweden, and Norway (our northern low density mountainous brethren) can make it work, we can make it work.

[Migrant_Coconut]

They got that by exporting a crapload of fish and oil. Our fisheries are in trouble (at least the ones that haven't imploded), and all we've got to show for buying TransMountain so far is $30 billion worth of debt.

I mean, I'm happy for them, but it's easy to say that when their entire country is the size of BC. Maybe we should secede?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They got that by exporting a crapload of fish and oil. Our fisheries are in trouble (at least the ones that haven't imploded), and all we've got to show for buying TransMountain so far is $30 billion worth of debt.

I mean, I'm happy for them, but it's easy to say that when their entire country is the size of BC. Maybe we should secede?

Sweden and Finland feel left out by your comments, and Norway definitely started building railways before the 1960s oil boom including the Oslo subway.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Point remains: if we could concentrate all that GDP on one province, we'd have Norway or Sweden's train network. As it is, even Ontario has to drive a lot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Point remains: if we could concentrate all that GDP on one province, we'd have Norway or Sweden's train network. As it is, even Ontario has to drive a lot.

eh.

Not really.
Its mostly about levels of tax revenue as a percent of GDP.

Canada 33.24%
Norway 44.3%
Sweden 41.32%

In Canada that would be an extra $200 billion or so of the economy shifted from private consumption to government expenditures.

[cganuelas1995]

The latest transit fantasy I can pull out my ass right now is to have all NightBus routes do a loop around downtown via Granville, West Pender, Burrard, Robson, Denman, and Davie. As well as turning the N10 into 2 routes, N10 and N11, N10 going from the loop to Richmond-Brighouse, the N11 going from YVR to South Delta Exchange (and possibly to the ferry terminal when the ferries become 24/7) via Ladner Exchange.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

The latest transit fantasy I can pull out my ass right now is to have all NightBus routes do a loop around downtown via Granville, West Pender, Burrard, Robson, Denman, and Davie. As well as turning the N10 into 2 routes, N10 and N11, N10 going from the loop to Richmond-Brighouse, the N11 going from YVR to South Delta Exchange (and possibly to the ferry terminal when the ferries become 24/7) via Ladner Exchange.

There's not enough demand to have all the NightBuses loop around downtown - the most you can hope for is for one of them to do a loop (I'd stick it on the N22 to Dunbar).

Enough people complained about having to detour through the airport that at some point the plan is to have the N10 Granville do a straight run down to Richmond and have the N15 Cambie continue on to the airport. If either was going to continue further south from the Canada Line it would be the N10.

My fantasy would be to have Surrey Central become a second NightBus hub (as it's planned to become the second downtown of the region) and have the RapidBus routes as NightBus routes.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

There's not enough demand to have all the NightBuses loop around downtown - the most you can hope for is for one of them to do a loop (I'd stick it on the N22 to Dunbar).

Enough people complained about having to detour through the airport that at some point the plan is to have the N10 Granville do a straight run down to Richmond and have the N15 Cambie continue on to the airport. If either was going to continue further south from the Canada Line it would be the N10.

My fantasy would be to have Surrey Central become a second NightBus hub (as it's planned to become the second downtown of the region) and have the RapidBus routes as NightBus routes.

Yeah and perhaps translink could look into using smaller automated vehicles for suburban late night transit along arterial streets, use an app to request a pickup, hop on, press a button when you want to get off and it will pull over at the nearest safe location and let you out. But that's relatively far into the future.

Would there be enough demand for a 24/7 5/6?

[madog222]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Yeah and perhaps translink could look into using smaller automated vehicles for suburban late night transit along arterial streets, use an app to request a pickup, hop on, press a button when you want to get off and it will pull over at the nearest safe location and let you out. But that's relatively far into the future.

Would there be enough demand for a 24/7 5/6?

So a taxi?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Yeah and perhaps translink could look into using smaller automated vehicles for suburban late night transit along arterial streets, use an app to request a pickup, hop on, press a button when you want to get off and it will pull over at the nearest safe location and let you out. But that's relatively far into the future.

Would there be enough demand for a 24/7 5/6?

Using a smaller vehicle doesn't save them all that much money (and currently automated only works on Skytrain) - that's why they tend to stick to full size buses. The smaller community shuttles are better on hills though.

As far as I know 'request a stop' still exists for buses after 9pm. You just talk to the driver beforehand instead of pressing a button.

Otherwise what you're asking for is a taxi / uber ride...

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Using a smaller vehicle doesn't save them all that much money (and currently automated only works on Skytrain) - that's why they tend to stick to full size buses. The smaller community shuttles are better on hills though.

Otherwise what you're asking for is a taxi / uber ride...

I'm talking more personal/pod flexible/on demand transit, driverless obviously, so to save money and since it will be at night there's probably less of a risk of a serious incident happening due to less traffic to confuse the driverless system

As far as I know 'request a stop' still exists for buses after 9pm. You just talk to the driver beforehand instead of pressing a button.

That makes it sound like you can request that they stop and let you off somewhere and you can't basically hail the bus like a taxi.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I'm talking more personal/pod flexible/on demand transit, driverless obviously, so to save money and since it will be at night there's probably less of a risk of a serious incident happening due to less traffic to confuse the driverless system


That makes it sound like you can request that they stop and let you off somewhere and you can't basically hail the bus like a taxi.

So you want Waymo then. It hasn't proven to be all that reliable so far, day or night. If it did actually work there would be more nighttime traffic.

For people who have money, they're more likely to use a car, uber or taxi for night travel. People who don't have as much money will use transit, cycling and / or walking. Your idea sounds like it would be somewhere in-between.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Also, I'm not really seeing the difference between a 9/10ths-empty bus and a 1/3rd-empty podcar. It's not the size of the vehicle that's driving the costs up; rather, having a completely separate fleet just for night service might actually make things more expensive to operate.

TransLink is probably best served by playing to its strengths: economies of scale by moving the most people with the least vehicles.

[bloomtronzero]

Originally Posted by Sheba

So you want Waymo then. It hasn't proven to be all that reliable so far, day or night. If it did actually work there would be more nighttime traffic.

For people who have money, they're more likely to use a car, uber or taxi for night travel. People who don't have as much money will use transit, cycling and / or walking. Your idea sounds like it would be somewhere in-between.

These ideas are often backed by people and capital explicitly trying to tank transit investment, too.


Nonsense vapourware ideas.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Point remains: if we could concentrate all that GDP on one province, we'd have Norway or Sweden's train network. As it is, even Ontario has to drive a lot.

Having just been across Norway for a while, I would like to share anecdotally that Norway, despite having some rail and public transit options here and there, is still predominantly car based away from Oslo.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

So you want Waymo then. It hasn't proven to be all that reliable so far, day or night. If it did actually work there would be more nighttime traffic.

For people who have money, they're more likely to use a car, uber or taxi for night travel. People who don't have as much money will use transit, cycling and / or walking. Your idea sounds like it would be somewhere in-between.

Basically that but more transit oriented and for the night when the NightBus network is in operation, like a last mile or feeder for the NightBus network and to provide a cheaper alternative to taxis and Uber. Basically adds more coverage to the NightBus network without the huge cost of labour that comes with it

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Basically that but more transit oriented and for the night when the NightBus network is in operation, like a last mile or feeder for the NightBus network and to provide a cheaper alternative to taxis and Uber. Basically adds more coverage to the NightBus network without the huge cost of labour that comes with it

Sadly it wouldn't work and would bleed money. TransLink would still have to spend a huge amount of money on these new vehicles and would have to make it back somehow.

Honestly a better idea would be to improve evening transit and later NightBuses across the entire region (and not just the CoV, which is pretty spoiled when it comes to bus routes).

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Basically that but more transit oriented and for the night when the NightBus network is in operation, like a last mile or feeder for the NightBus network and to provide a cheaper alternative to taxis and Uber. Basically adds more coverage to the NightBus network without the huge cost of labour that comes with it

Definitely not Waymo then. It's 30-40% more expensive than taking a Lyft or Uber in San Francisco.

Maybe one day a service like that could be inexpensive, but there's no sign of that anytime soon.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Sheba

There's not enough demand to have all the NightBuses loop around downtown - the most you can hope for is for one of them to do a loop (I'd stick it on the N22 to Dunbar).

Enough people complained about having to detour through the airport that at some point the plan is to have the N10 Granville do a straight run down to Richmond and have the N15 Cambie continue on to the airport. If either was going to continue further south from the Canada Line it would be the N10.

My fantasy would be to have Surrey Central become a second NightBus hub (as it's planned to become the second downtown of the region) and have the RapidBus routes as NightBus routes.

N15 continuing to the airport makes a lot of sense, as that would mirror the Canada Line. Agreed that nighttime RapidBus (and BRT) should also be a thing, could even just provide service with regular vehicles during that time that integrate with the existing routes. Some small extensions, like the R6 being extended, from Scott Road terminus to reach Surrey Central would make sense. The KGB BRT could be used to extend the N19 south. There really should be a route that goes from SFU to Surrey Central, stopping in Lougheed/Sapperton areas before going across the new Pattullo. And a route down Fraser Highway to mirror the Expo extension, then we'd have full nightbus coverage of existing (and under construction) Skytrain routes.