I'm simply obsessed with Chicago

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm pretty sure the "clean" thing is just a metaphor for other marginally related things (well organized streetgrid, the lakefront parks, lots of greenery downtown, not many vendors or street commerce, etc.).

It's a metaphor for alleys.

How can you not wrap your ahead around that?

[jd3189]

Hopefully Chicago continues to be a well kept secret. Would suck for housing prices and rent to rise due to increased demand.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Also Oprah did.

I know a guy who did some work for Oprah and said that she was a tyrant. I know another guy who worked production on a Michael Jordan Hanes commercial shoot who said the whole thing was absolutely absurd. They did like like 5 days of prep for these commercials (they shot 4-5 of them at once) and then they only had Jordan's time for like 40 minutes. If you remember how dumb and awkward those Hanes commercials were it was because they'd only do like 3 takes of each. If they didn't get a good take it didn't matter - they had to go with it.

I vaguely recall walking or driving past the area where Oprah and Jerry Springer were shot around 2003. I remember it being about a mile west of DT Chicago and they had a giant photo of Jerry Springer on the side of the building. I can't remember what Oprah's building looked like but the two were relatively close to each-other.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

It's a metaphor for alleys.

How can you not wrap your ahead around that?

"When you leave New York, you are astonished at how clean the rest of the world is. Clean is not enough." — fran lebowitz

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I vaguely recall walking or driving past the area where Oprah and Jerry Springer were shot around 2003. I remember it being about a mile west of DT Chicago and they had a giant photo of Jerry Springer on the side of the building. I can't remember what Oprah's building looked like but the two were relatively close to each-other.

That's not what I remember.

Springer was taped at the studios in NBC Tower over in Streeterville.

Oprah was taped at Harpo Studios out in the west loop.

The two locations were about 1.75 miles away from each other.


Springer production eventually moved to Connecticut sometime during the later years of the show's run.

[pip]

Even the alleys are clean compared to other cities. It is just the way it is. Chicago is clean to comparable other cities. Rarely do you get the stench of trash, the grime, or rats all over the place. Yes I'm sure you can run into this sometimes but go to another city and live in a neighborhood, not touristy area and you will see the difference.

[iheartthed]

I've seen rats on the streets in Chicago. They're not as prevalent as in New York but I've definitely seen them.

Chicago feels average American city level of cleanliness to me. It doesn't feel remarkably more clean than Boston or DC or Minneapolis.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's why stereotypes are dangerous. Argentineans think of themselves as the least Latin of Latin America. Much of the population is ethnically German, French, Italian, or other. Ethnic Spaniards are a minority. Buenos Aires feels to me like it could be a French city.

But even in Europe you don't have huge nightlife scenes outside of a handful of major cities and tourist traps. In most places where they do siestas, things will open up around 8pm and be closed by 1am. After that there may be a handful of bars and nightclubs open but you're not likely to find anything to the scale of nightlife in Chicago, except in a handful of places.

But Spain gets a very good nightlife and I was expecting Buenos Aires would have the same vibe. But they don't. Only late dinner.

It's an amazing city though and you can see people living there really love the amazing urban living they get there.

To me Buenos Aires is like a more pleasant Paris. Greener, more walkable.

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'll be in Chicago in three weeks, staying in the most touristy location possible. I'll admit I'm not regularly surveying community cleanliness on my travels but I'll look for the allegedly pristine streets.

I'm pretty sure this is nonsense and the "clean" thing is just a metaphor for other marginally related things (well organized streetgrid, the lakefront parks, lots of greenery downtown, not many vendors or street commerce, etc.).

Well, speaking for myself, I didn't use "clean" as a metaphor. I just found it clean, and yes, well kept gardens, not many vendors, all that might have contributed to form this view.

But then again, it's really a thing that I care much. In fact, I tend to prefer places that are not clean. Of course clean is a good thing, but it's not a deal maker for me when it comes to cities/neighbourhoods.

Originally Posted by mrnyc

"When you leave New York, you are astonished at how clean the rest of the world is. Clean is not enough." — fran lebowitz

That's why I'm intrigued my Crawford's remark. I don't know New York but I'm pretty sure it's way dirtier and less well kept than Chicago. If he was living in Tokyo, I'd understand he wouldn't be impressed by Chicago, but that's not the case.

Originally Posted by pip

Even the alleys are clean compared to other cities. It is just the way it is. Chicago is clean to comparable other cities. Rarely do you get the stench of trash, the grime, or rats all over the place. Yes I'm sure you can run into this sometimes but go to another city and live in a neighborhood, not touristy area and you will see the difference.

I was fascinated by the alleys, I didn't enter in anyone, but I always peeked them and take pics. They seem very clean as well. No trash on the ground.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I've seen rats on the streets in Chicago. They're not as prevalent as in New York but I've definitely seen them.

Chicago feels average American city level of cleanliness to me. It doesn't feel remarkably more clean than Boston or DC or Minneapolis.

Oh we've got rats. . . LOTS of rats. . . and they're visible, especially after dark. . . as far as other cities go, Chicago is as clean as Minneapolis (or vice versa). . .

I'm in Los Angeles about once or twice a year and anyone that thinks L.A. is just as clean as Chicago is delusional. . . Chicago is very clean for a city it's size. . .

. . . also Chicago is a better manicured city than most which probably helps with the perception of cleanliness.

. . .

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

But Spain gets a very good nightlife and I was expecting Buenos Aires would have the same vibe. But they don't. Only late dinner.

It's an amazing city though and you can see people living there really love the amazing urban living they get there.

To me Buenos Aires is like a more pleasant Paris. Greener, more walkable.

I agree. It's definitely not Spain. It's probably more like Lisbon in that regard. I thought Lisbon would have a huge nightlife scene but I found it to be pretty underwhelming.

I did find a couple of bars in Buenos Aires that I really liked and I go back to them whenever I'm in the city. But the bar and night club scene is somewhat subdued for what I would expect of a city that size. That aside, BsAs is an amazing city. I love visiting.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

Oh we've got rats. . . LOTS of rats. . . and they're visible, especially after dark. . . as far as other cities go, Chicago is as clean as Minneapolis (or vice versa). . .

I'm in Los Angeles about once or twice a year and anyone that thinks L.A. is just as clean as Chicago is delusional. . . Chicago is very clean for a city it's size. . .

. . . also Chicago is a better manicured city than most which probably helps with the perception of cleanliness.

. . .

L.A.'s cleanliness varies based on where you're at. I think downtown LA and the touristy areas of Hollywood are pretty clean, but Chicago has nothing like Skid Row. There's simply no comparison lol.

[Blitz]

I've thought the same thing during my visits, but as others have said the "clean" reputation is confined to the downtown area. What stood out to me were all the huge planters and flowerbeds that were meticulously maintained as well as the general lack of vagrants.

Outside of the loop is different though. Most of my visits to Chicago have been on Amtrak and coming in to any city by rail tends to give you a look at the less attractive side cities, and Chicago is no different there.

[Chisouthside]

Manicured is actually a good word. i walk 3 days a week to my work building in lakeshore east and always see city workers doing work on the planters along michigan avenue and the city also doesnt allow any camping by unhoused people anywhere near downtown. even on lower randolph or wacker i dont see them for more than a few days

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by Blitz

I've thought the same thing during my visits, but as others have said the "clean" reputation is confined to the downtown area. What stood out to me were all the huge planters and flowerbeds that were meticulously maintained as well as the general lack of vagrants.

Outside of the loop is different though. Most of my visits to Chicago have been on Amtrak and coming in to any city by rail tends to give you a look at the less attractive side cities, and Chicago is no different there.

It's not just the Loop, though. All of the northside neighborhoods from downtown up to Evanston are impeccably clean. Are Logan Square (perhaps my favorite neighborhood now) and Irving Park also considered the north side? I don't know. But those areas were also very well maintained.

I don't know why this clean conversation appears to be such a hot take for Crawford. To be clear, I'm making a comparison to other major cities in the US, not Japanese or European cities.

What does clean mean—a lack of random old food scattered across sidewalks, a lack of overturned cans, toilets being used as sidewalks or drug tens, a lack of rubbish floating around on the sides of roadways.

Who cares if alleyways are not clean? What matters is what people see on the main streets.

I did visit Pilsen, which is a gentrifying, lower-income neighborhood from what I understand, and it was definitely a bit more rough around the edges visually by comparison. But still cleaner than Koreatown or East Hollywood (the latter, vastly so).

My work team is half based in LA, half NYC. And we all shared the same sentiment while visiting.

I don't think that kind of aforementioned filth adds to any sort of vibrance of a city. I do think there's something to civic pride that isn't being mentioned, too. Perhaps Chicago has a larger share of homegrown natives or regional locals vs transpants, and that plays a part.

[38 Geary]

I am assuming Chicago does not produce significantly less trash compared to its large urban peers. So I'm guessing it does a better job of trash disposal.

Does Chicago have more trash cans on the street per capita compared to other cities? Or perhaps its residents/visitors are more likely to throw trash away rather than litter? Or if not, then perhaps they have more available staff to pick up litter and keep the streets and sidewalks clean?

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Chisouthside

Manicured is actually a good word. i walk 3 days a week to my work building in lakeshore east and always see city workers doing work on the planters along michigan avenue and the city also doesnt allow any camping by unhoused people anywhere near downtown. even on lower randolph or wacker i dont see them for more than a few days

I spend most of my time in Lakeshore East - where I live - so anywhere I go is through the Loop and/or the River North parts, and the city does a pretty good job of keeping it clean. . . we don't really allow street vendors, hot dog carts or stuff like that - although you can find them from time to time. . . what I've noticed more in the last 5 years or so that's kind of shabby is the pedicabs and food trucks. . . not a fan of either. . .

With regards to neighborhoods, it really depends on where you are, but even the most crime ridden areas are probably more visibly "cleaner" than what you'd find in New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles or the like. . . generally speaking, if it's a sun-belt city you're not going to have an annual winter season that literally cleanses the city of any dreck. . . even places like Atlanta, Houston, Phoenix or Miami are gross if walking around the normal non-touristy parts. . .

. . .

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

I don't know why this clean conversation appears to be such a hot take for Crawford. To be clear, I'm making a comparison to other major cities in the US, not Japanese or European cities.

Because I think it's rubbish. It's an oft-repeated term, but largely meaningless. And you see it here, with people conflating homeless, flowers, and whatnot with street cleanliness.

Chicago is not a clean city. It isn't a U.S. outlier, in either extreme. It's a big, old, vibrant, dirty town. And I wouldn't want it clean. A clean city is a boring one. It likely means intolerance for activities that make a city interesting. No, not bums, and litterers, but dining al fresco, street vendors, impromptu park gatherings, kids playing, street festivals, etc.

Chicago is a very manicured city, however. It's very organized, at least officially. Boston and SF and NYC generally aren't organized. They're a mess. This is (IMO) the real distinction. But I don't agree that a random Boston resident lives on a meaningfully dirtier street than a random Chicago resident.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Because I think it's rubbish. . . Chicago is not a clean city. It isn't a U.S. outlier, in either extreme. It's a big, old, vibrant, dirty town.

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. . . but despite any data to back up all these so-called claims, the general perception of many many people - not just urbanist types who pay attention to these kinds of things - is that Chicago is a surprisingly clean city. . .

. . .

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago

Well, that's just like your opinion, man. . . but despite any data to back up all these so-called claims, the general perception of many many people - not just urbanist types who pay attention to these kinds of things - is that Chicago is a surprisingly clean city. . .

. . .

Exactly!

Regardless of whether or not any given individual agrees with the perception, Yuri and destroycreate are FAR from the first visitors to Chicago to comment on how they feel the city seems cleaner than most other big cities.

It's an observation made so damn often that there has to be something to it.

I maintain that it's Chicago's ubiquitous alleys, and their ability to keep more sordid urban activities like trash collection more out of sight, out of mind for visitors, that are a main underpinning of this extremely common observation from visitors to Chicago.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Because I think it's rubbish. It's an oft-repeated term, but largely meaningless. And you see it here, with people conflating homeless, flowers, and whatnot with street cleanliness.

Chicago is not a clean city. It isn't a U.S. outlier, in either extreme. It's a big, old, vibrant, dirty town. And I wouldn't want it clean. A clean city is a boring one. It likely means intolerance for activities that make a city interesting. No, not bums, and litterers, but dining al fresco, street vendors, impromptu park gatherings, kids playing, street festivals, etc.

Chicago is a very manicured city, however. It's very organized, at least officially. Boston and SF and NYC generally aren't organized. They're a mess. This is (IMO) the real distinction. But I don't agree that a random Boston resident lives on a meaningfully dirtier street than a random Chicago resident.

Now you are conflating things.

Nobody here is conflating flowers for bums, and nobody here thinks having bums and litter all over the streets makes a city interesting.

What people are chiming in on is, for a city its size, Chicago has done a good job of minimizing those things. Nobody is saying that Chicago is prestine and manicured on every block across the city. However, for the neighborhoods people spend most of their time, things are pretty nice. We have all of the things that make Chicago a very interesting city that we tolerate - What people are highlighting is that we take a little pride in keeping our major streets/parks clean - That's what people are noticing.

Take a walk down the river walk - You won't see trash, vagrants, etc. In the West Loop, at best, you will see the rare homeless person siting on the sidewalk with a sign, but that's it. Walk around Grant Park - You won't see tent cities over there. Go up to Wrigleyville - Same goes.

Yes, Chicago has a gritty vibe to it because it's an older city with a industrial history to it, but that's not what we are discussing.