1477 West Broadway | 124 M | 39 fl | U/C

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why is all this Senakw stuff in the 1477 Broadway thread?

Read a few posts up, it's quite easy to follow why.

[AlessioSBT]

This is what i was referring to:

"There are also indications that the Squamish may slow down future phases of the next eight towers until the economic picture for housing construction improves."

To go back to the original topic, what i'm trying to say is that right now there's no way to build something from zero. The average re-sale cost for Vancouver and Toronto is around 1000/sqft and it cost at least 1500 to start now and build a residential building.

So what i'm saying is that all these new proposals we see will not actually happen for a very long time.

[jollyburger]

Nicola took the 6th floor as well along with 7/8 they previously leased.

https://www.floorspace.ca/insights/f...-transactions/

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by AlessioSBT

This is what i was referring to:


To go back to the original topic, what i'm trying to say is that right now there's no way to build something from zero. The average re-sale cost for Vancouver and Toronto is around 1000/sqft and it cost at least 1500 to start now and build a residential building.

So what i'm saying is that all these new proposals we see will not actually happen for a very long time.

This thread is about a rental building, so re-sale costs are irrelevent. There are at least 100 sites already acquired by developers, and proposed for rental development in the Broadway Corridor, so those site purchases are 'sunk costs' - it costs those developers nothing more to develop them.

As has been discussed on the Broadway Corridor thread, sites are being acquired even today at under $200 psf buildable. The construction costs for a typical concrete highrise in the Broadway Corridor are currently around $500-$520 psf.

There are additional soft costs, (design legal, permits etc), but concrete rental towers should cost under $1,000 psf to deliver to market (site, construction, soft costs, tenant relocation etc etc). One reason for rental towers not being built could be the availability of construction finance, but for some projects there are both provincial (BC Builds) and federal (CMHC) funds to provide construction loans for rental buildings.

Another reason would be if there is insufficient demand to reach reasonable occupancy levels for new rental buildings. Rental vacancy rates are still low, so that's not really a factor yet, but how well buildings like this rent out should give a good indication of demand.

[PBlonde]

Originally Posted by Changing City

This thread is about a rental building, so re-sale costs are irrelevent. There are at least 100 sites already acquired by developers, and proposed for rental development in the Broadway Corridor, so those site purchases are 'sunk costs' - it costs those developers nothing more to develop them.

As has been discussed on the Broadway Corridor thread, sites are being acquired even today at under $200 psf buildable. The construction costs for a typical concrete highrise in the Broadway Corridor are currently around $500-$520 psf.

There are additional soft costs, (design legal, permits etc), but concrete rental towers should cost under $1,000 psf to deliver to market (site, construction, soft costs, tenant relocation etc etc). One reason for rental towers not being built could be the availability of construction finance, but for some projects there are both provincial (BC Builds) and federal (CMHC) funds to provide construction loans for rental buildings.

Another reason would be if there is insufficient demand to reach reasonable occupancy levels for new rental buildings. Rental vacancy rates are still low, so that's not really a factor yet, but how well buildings like this rent out should give a good indication of demand.

Re-sale value is entirely relevant as no bank will lend the money to build a property if it turns out that upon completion, it will be worth less than what it cost to build, unless there's a heap of equity in the deal. And if that's the case, the developer is putting a heap of their own money up knowing they'll lose a chunk of it while taking risk that they could lose an even bigger chunk of it. They'd be better off putting it in a GIC for 2 years instead.

Land costs are also not sunk costs, they can resell the land and put that money to use elsewhere, especially if through developing said land they stand to lose more money.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by PBlonde

Re-sale value is entirely relevant as no bank will lend the money to build a property if it turns out that upon completion, it will be worth less than what it cost to build, unless there's a heap of equity in the deal. And if that's the case, the developer is putting a heap of their own money up knowing they'll lose a chunk of it while taking risk that they could lose an even bigger chunk of it. They'd be better off putting it in a GIC for 2 years instead.

Land costs are also not sunk costs, they can resell the land and put that money to use elsewhere, especially if through developing said land they stand to lose more money.

The post I was replying to was referencing resale condo prices, not rental building values.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that no rental developments are proceeding in the City of Vancouver because buildings that get developed will be worth less than they've cost to build. So far this year the CMHC data for rental housing starts in the city (2,056 units to May) are more than the 1,914 to May 2024 or the 1,721 in the first 5 months of 2023.

Maybe rental projects won't be viable at some point in the future, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case, and developers are continuing to submit more rezonings and development permits for rental buildings. That's not the case for condo towers, but we're in a thread about a rental building that's just completing, in the Broadway Plan area where almost every development has been proposed as a rental tower rather than as strata units.

[PBlonde]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The post I was replying to was referencing resale condo prices, not rental building values.

I'm not sure if you're suggesting that no rental developments are proceeding in the City of Vancouver because buildings that get developed will be worth less than they've cost to build. So far this year the CMHC data for rental housing starts in the city (2,056 units to May) are more than the 1,914 to May 2024 or the 1,721 in the first 5 months of 2023.

Maybe rental projects won't be viable at some point in the future, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case, and developers are continuing to submit more rezonings and development permits for rental buildings. That's not the case for condo towers, but we're in a thread about a rental building that's just completing, in the Broadway Plan area where almost every development has been proposed as a rental tower rather than as strata units.

I read the post you quoted as referring to general costs from purchase through construction costing $1,500 PSF (which I think is high), regardless of it being condo or rental. The same premise applies to both though in that not many projects, if any, will proceed if they stand to cost more to deliver than they'll be worth on completion. At the moment, rental buildings are not worth more than their cost to complete. Those projects that are currently under way will go forward but a significant amount of projects that have been submitted for rezoning and development permits won't be built any time soon as the economics don't work. Any one that is holding that land would be foolish not to try and increase the value of their property by getting rezoning and development approvals as it will either help with selling the land, or when the time is right it will allow them to start development.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by PBlonde

I read the post you quoted as referring to general costs from purchase through construction costing $1,500 PSF (which I think is high), regardless of it being condo or rental. The same premise applies to both though in that not many projects, if any, will proceed if they stand to cost more to deliver than they'll be worth on completion. At the moment, rental buildings are not worth more than their cost to complete. Those projects that are currently under way will go forward but a significant amount of projects that have been submitted for rezoning and development permits won't be built any time soon as the economics don't work. Any one that is holding that land would be foolish not to try and increase the value of their property by getting rezoning and development approvals as it will either help with selling the land, or when the time is right it will allow them to start development.

This is probably not the thread to discuss development economics in the wider context. I agree that development costs of $1,500 PSF for rental buildings is too high. I don't agree with the blanket statement "rental buildings are not worth more than their cost to complete". It may be true for some projects, but continuing housing starts suggests it's not yet universal.

[PBlonde]

Originally Posted by Changing City

This is probably not the thread to discuss development economics in the wider context. I agree that development costs of $1,500 PSF for rental buildings is too high. I don't agree with the blanket statement "rental buildings are not worth more than their cost to complete". It may be true for some projects, but continuing housing starts suggests it's not yet universal.

Agreed on all fronts and that we should probably not continue to take this thread off topic.

[officedweller]

New model pics:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DQ5KphvEUIH/?img_index=1

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by officedweller

New model pics:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DQ5KphvEUIH/?img_index=1

That's for the charity fundraiser. Other Lego models here:

https://www.instagram.com/pacificautism/

[Spr0ckets]

Does anyone know when the potential scheduled opening date for the City Market is going to be?

I imagine no earlier than late summer next year until the work on the Granville subway station is done, on account of loading issues and all the construction equipment hampering access.

[AlessioSBT]

I was checking the prices for the rental units in this building, just to have an idea of the currents rates in this area.

Studio: $2600 - $2700 for 440sqft
1BD: $2900 - $3600 for 488 - 618 sqft
2BD: $4300 - $4800 for 747 - 800 sqft


The studio are a bad deal. Almost 3k for a 400sqft unit.

[PBlonde]

Originally Posted by AlessioSBT

I was checking the prices for the rental units in this building, just to have an idea of the currents rates in this area.

Studio: $2600 - $2700 for 440sqft
1BD: $2900 - $3600 for 488 - 618 sqft
2BD: $4300 - $4800 for 747 - 800 sqft


The studio are a bad deal. Almost 3k for a 400sqft unit.

I would expect they have difficulty leasing up with those prices unless they're doing 2 months of free rent and parking or similar. Even then, that is very expensive, closing to $6PSF for unfurnished rental. Any idea what the finishing in the units is like?

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

Does anyone know when the potential scheduled opening date for the City Market is going to be?

I imagine no earlier than late summer next year until the work on the Granville subway station is done, on account of loading issues and all the construction equipment hampering access.

In 2023 they said early 2026 but I guess it's more likely the opening date has been pushed back. Their building permit just got issued in October.

The Post got a building permit in May 2023 and opened February 2024. But it was 45K sq foot. West Broadway is 22K.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

In 2023 they said early 2026 but I guess it's more likely the opening date has been pushed back. Their building permit just got issued in October.

The Post got a building permit in May 2023 and opened February 2024. But it was 45K sq foot. West Broadway is 22K.

Well, the residential portion in the tower has received occupancy and people have already moved in.
And I wouldn't be surprised to see not ony Nicola Wealth move into their new office space in the podium early next year along with any other office tenants that may have already leased the remaining space.
( I believe another tenant on the ground level at least, is an RBC branch . Wouldn't be surprised to see them opening next year despite the line not being complete)

Which at that point would mean the tower is mostly already occupied for all components except the retail food market.

The problem for them is that the loading truck lane and access to the loading bay is currently part of the staging for the station construction.

And the station construction won't be fully completed (even without the trains beginning service) until the Broadway protion is fixed and covered up and this station will be the second last one to get covered up (which should mark its completion before the service can begin the following year in 2027.
This section of Broadway isn't scheduled for completion until the latter half of next year (The third quarter) before Arbutus station gets completed in the last quarter).

So I would estimate the earliest they could possibly open would be Fall or Winter next year.

But you could be right and they could wait until (mid) 2027...ish, when the skytrain line is fully complete and running.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Spr0ckets

Well, the residential portion in the tower has received occupancy and people have already moved in.
And I wouldn't be surprised to see not ony Nicola Wealth move into their new office space in the podium early next year along with any other office tenants that may have already leased the remaining space.
( I believe another tenant on the ground level at least, is an RBC branch . Wouldn't be surprised to see them opening next year despite the line not being complete)

Which at that point would mean the tower is mostly already occupied for all components except the retail food market.

The problem for them is that the loading truck lane and access to the loading bay is currently part of the staging for the station construction.

And the station construction won't be fully completed (even without the trains beginning service) until the Broadway protion is fixed and covered up and this station will be the second last one to get covered up (which should mark its completion before the service can begin the following year in 2027.
This section of Broadway isn't scheduled for completion until the latter half of next year (The third quarter) before Arbutus station gets completed in the last quarter).

So I would estimate the earliest they could possibly open would be Fall or Winter next year.

But you could be right and they could wait until (mid) 2027...ish, when the skytrain line is fully complete and running.

Nicola was also just in the process of getting their building permit issued last month

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=272820116

RBC got their permit back in July

"This is the RBC tenant improvement, for a bank branch. The DB permit was issued on July 25 and there
was no work done in July. When we walked through on Aug. 15 as part of the base building final
inspection there had been no TI work done other than loading of the prefab vault sections."

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=242523153

They were doing electrical rough in/plumbing work this month so they'll probably open first. The cafe CRU might still be available for lease as well.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Nicola was also just in the process of getting their building permit issued last month

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=272820116

RBC got their permit back in July

"This is the RBC tenant improvement, for a bank branch. The DB permit was issued on July 25 and there
was no work done in July. When we walked through on Aug. 15 as part of the base building final
inspection there had been no TI work done other than loading of the prefab vault sections."

https://plposweb.vancouver.ca/Public...ctId=242523153

They were doing electrical rough in/plumbing work this month so they'll probably open first. The cafe CRU might still be available for lease as well.

RBC have "Opening Soon" signs posted on their frontages.
Which could probably mean any time within the next several weeks, but most likely some time early next year.

City Market have some kind of translucent plastic covering all over the interior glazing - which tends to indicate some work currently ongoing inside for interiors and fittings.
I still don't see them opening any time early than summer next year at the earliest, but it would be pleasantly surprising to see a Spring opening.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by AlessioSBT

I was checking the prices for the rental units in this building, just to have an idea of the currents rates in this area.

Studio: $2600 - $2700 for 440sqft
1BD: $2900 - $3600 for 488 - 618 sqft
2BD: $4300 - $4800 for 747 - 800 sqft


The studio are a bad deal. Almost 3k for a 400sqft unit.

Woah! Those prices - all of them - are a BAD deal. What a joke.

[gaviscon]

UBC isn't even that expensive