Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[madog222]

During the last major concrete pour for GNW - Emily Carr a few days ago a special edition Loonie featuring TBM namesake Elsie MacGill was embedded in the station roof. This would be the southern part of the station where Thornton Street will be restored overtop.

Imprint of maple leaf with special edition Loonie featuring Elsie MacGill by B.C. Ministry of Transportation and Transit, on Flickr


Special edition Loonie featuring Elsie MacGill by B.C. Ministry of Transportation and Transit, on Flickr

[Dave2]

Broadway Subway stations begin to take shape for 2027 opening

[jollyburger]

The "final" (?) price hike isn't too bad

The province also said project’s costs have continued to creep higher, to $2.95 billion from the last estimate of $2.83 billion.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/broadway-subway-vancouver-midway-point-delays-higher-cost

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

The "final" (?) price hike isn't too bad

It hasn't changed from the numbers that were stated at the end of last year. "In its Fall 2024 fiscal update this week, the provincial government noted that the project to build SkyTrain Millennium Line’s Broadway extension reaching Arbutus will see a relatively slight cost increase of 4.5% or $127 million, growing from $2.827 billion to $2.954 billion."

[csbvan]

That price tag seems.. quite reasonable?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by csbvan

That price tag seems.. quite reasonable?

It's worth remembering how short this actually is. 5.7km and 6 stations. So around $500M per station/km.

UBC is 7km and 4 stations but the cost is estimated to be in the $3.5B range as of a few years ago. Easy to see it at $4B today.

Langley is 16kms, 8 stations, and will cost $6B. A huge spike from the initial $4B.

Arbutus has been amazing at sticking on budget, relatively. It was contracted at 2.83B in 2020, before massive inflation hit. The schedule has been horrendous though. Langley budget was blown out but it's possible the schedule will look better.

[csbvan]

By Canadian transit schedules, the delays are actually quite reasonable! And while it is short, given the complexity of building even 6km in this densely buitl up part of the city for under $3b is quite good.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by csbvan

That price tag seems.. quite reasonable?

It's insanely reasonable when the Ontario Line in Toronto is on track to be $27 billion dollar project.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

It's insanely reasonable when the Ontario Line in Toronto is on track to be $27 billion dollar project.

That figure includes an operating contract for 30 years rolled up into it that the Broadway Subway does not have. Thankfully we learned our lessons about P3 operating contracts from the mistake that is the Canada Line.

The Ontario line is also ~3 times longer, with it's own maintenance yard being built as well. Platforms at stations for the Ontario line are larger too, and the downtown stations are deeper with more development. Lots of other factors at play making it more expensive.

[surrey]

With the escalating costs to build skytrain my gut feeling is the UBC extension will be the final ever skytrain extension the lower mainland builds. The rest will be BRT lines throughout the region.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by surrey

With the escalating costs to build skytrain my gut feeling is the UBC extension will be the final ever skytrain extension the lower mainland builds. The rest will be BRT lines throughout the region.

That will all but certainly not be the case. SkyTrain will continue to be built as the population warrants.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by csbvan

That will all but certainly not be the case. SkyTrain will continue to be built as the population warrants.

Yeah. You could argue UBC and Langley if completed today, would "catch us up", but there are always places to expand. North shore, another E-W line...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Newton, Port Coq, 41st, Hastings... I don't think we'll ever run out of trains to build in our lifetimes.

Originally Posted by mcj

The Ontario line is also ~3 times longer, with it's own maintenance yard being built as well. Platforms at stations for the Ontario line are larger too, and the downtown stations are deeper with more development. Lots of other factors at play making it more expensive.

Still works out to $1,743 million/km against Broadway's $518m/km ($746m if we include OMC4). I could understand the operating contract and the higher capacity and deeper tunnels leading to double the cost per distance, but triple stretches disbelief.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by mcj

Thankfully we learned our lessons about P3 operating contracts from the mistake that is the Canada Line.

Has the contract been that problematic? I'm not sure I remember much griping about it, other than how long it took to acquire extra rolling stock in order to alleviate overcrowding.

The shortcuts taken during construction are another matter. But it seems to have operating relatively smoothly from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Has the contract been that problematic? I'm not sure I remember much griping about it, other than how long it took to acquire extra rolling stock in order to alleviate overcrowding.

The shortcuts taken during construction are another matter. But it seems to have operating relatively smoothly from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

It is underbuilt.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It is underbuilt.

Politicians at the time thought it would be a white elephant. It has been a great success. Calling it underbuilt is with the benefit of hindsight.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Has the contract been that problematic? I'm not sure I remember much griping about it, other than how long it took to acquire extra rolling stock in order to alleviate overcrowding.

The shortcuts taken during construction are another matter. But it seems to have operating relatively smoothly from what I've seen. Am I wrong?

It's not overly problematic, it's just that everything about the Canada Line as a project compromised the future to try and save a buck in the present. Capacity issues right from the start are an issue. The operating contract doesn't give SNC Lavalin any incentive to provide better service, hence the delay in acquiring extra rolling stock, the line is profitable enough for them until the contract runs out. As well, Translink doesn't see a dime of profits from the line for the duration of the operating contract, which would probably help right now with the fiscal cliff since Skytrain is really the only profitable part of the transit system.

Ultimately this project, despite the cost increases, will be a better product that should be immediately profitable for Translink.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Newton, Port Coq, 41st, Hastings... I don't think we'll ever run out of trains to build in our lifetimes.

Still works out to $1,743 million/km against Broadway's $518m/km ($746m if we include OMC4). I could understand the operating contract and the higher capacity and deeper tunnels leading to double the cost per distance, but triple stretches disbelief.

If you include OMC4, that is getting closer to roughly double. I'm sure there's plenty of cronyism and profiteering involved with the Ontario line, probably why it's difficult to find any high level details about the contract like how much the operations portion will cost and what the profit margin of the P3 partnership is.

[SpongeG]

some uploads - a look inside

• Video Link

• Video Link

• Video Link

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by whatnext

It is underbuilt.

I don't see how that's the fault of the 3P process, though. It was built to the spec required by the government, wasn't it?