[Saint John] Port Development

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by sailor734

That section of the coast is wide open to the SE S and SW. I can't see how a ship could lay alongside there in any amount of wind or sea state.

I wondered about that also. What other purpose do you think they might have for that size of ocean frontage?

[sailor734]

I'm now thinking maybe I'm wrong about the exposure issue. Ships appear to lay along side the LNG terminal and it is equally exposed to the full fetch of the bay. I'm assuming they just don't bring ships in if the sea state or winds are above certain maximums. Ships unload/load and are gone so much faster today that I'm guessing it's not an issue?

https://www.saintjohnlng.com/video-gallery

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by bingun

That is interesting. I hadn't given much thought to that small section when I reviewed the report, but now that I look at it again, it seems like it could be deliberate.

Also note, in the permitted uses, 'Harbour Facility' was added with this revision when it was not previously included, which surely isn't random.



That being said, is it realistic that that kind of expansion would be needed one day? If the AIM's appeal is ever shut down, would the port not want to expand into that space rather than go to Lorneville?

In the Hapag meeting this morning, which included reps from DP World Saint John, SJPA, and CPKC, it was mentioned by SJPA and DPW that 20K+ ships were being planned for - AND that an "industrial park" would be the likely location for that. That confirms my thoughts on that plan.

Also, yes, it is realistic. One of the main reasons 20K ships are not on the NAEC, is because there are no ports deep enough. Lorneville would easily be deep enough. It would be far easier to receive 20K ships at Lorneville due to a few factors. Turning space, depth (no dredging required), and Spruce Lake and surrounding areas are going to be the focal point of new business for the port. When DP World talked about building an industrial park, they weren't just referring to port lands around the city center. This has always been to expand the city and the tax base to add thousands of jobs besides the one's created directly at the port. This will also spur housing and support businesses that don't even exist today.

On top of that, there will need to be a rail corridor to Lorneville. I have a possible corridor for that already in the works. It may extend south from the wye at the west end of Ponderosa Yard for about 7-8 miles. As I stated before, it won't be cheap or quick, but with the billions of dollars of investment being thrown around, it will be feasible.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

In the Hapag meeting this morning, which included reps from DP World Saint John, SJPA, and CPKC, it was mentioned by SJPA and DPW that 20K+ ships were being planned for - AND that an "industrial park" would be the likely location for that. That confirms my thoughts on that plan.

Also, yes, it is realistic. One of the main reasons 20K ships are not on the NAEC, is because there are no ports deep enough. Lorneville would easily be deep enough. It would be far easier to receive 20K ships at Lorneville due to a few factors. Turning space, depth (no dredging required), and Spruce Lake and surrounding areas are going to be the focal point of new business for the port. When DP World talked about building an industrial park, they weren't just referring to port lands around the city center. This has always been to expand the city and the tax base to add thousands of jobs besides the one's created directly at the port. This will also spur housing and support businesses that don't even exist today.

On top of that, there will need to be a rail corridor to Lorneville. I have a possible corridor for that already in the works. It may extend south from the wye at the west end of Ponderosa Yard for about 7-8 miles. As I stated before, it won't be cheap or quick, but with the billions of dollars of investment being thrown around, it will be feasible.

That's a great catch from their meeting. Thanks for that information. With the rezoning debate upcoming on Monday, I don't know if the local population are even considering that kind of development.

The rail component was on my mind, too, when I read through your previous post, in that it would have to be developed and would be a significant cost. If this is a serious proposal, there will need to be serious coordination, investment, and consistent messaging from all three layers of government, the port, the rail companies and others to make this happen.

Do you think the hydrogen storage/manufacturing is being included purposefully with something potentially on the horizon, or is that just a long shot in case anyone shows interest in the future to allow for a smoother approval process?

[cdnguys]

upload image get url

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

upload image get url

I'd say yes. Looks like a compressor box on the end of each one.

[CharlotteCountyLogan]

Yeah they are reefers.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by bingun

Do you think the hydrogen storage/manufacturing is being included purposefully with something potentially on the horizon, or is that just a long shot in case anyone shows interest in the future to allow for a smoother approval process?

I would guess they have somebody interested in that. In that regard, I would have to assume it's something on the horizon. That is only based on it being included in the document though. So, don't assume I'm right on that.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

In the Hapag meeting this morning, which included reps from DP World Saint John, SJPA, and CPKC, it was mentioned by SJPA and DPW that 20K+ ships were being planned for - AND that an "industrial park" would be the likely location for that. That confirms my thoughts on that plan.

Also, yes, it is realistic. One of the main reasons 20K ships are not on the NAEC, is because there are no ports deep enough. Lorneville would easily be deep enough. It would be far easier to receive 20K ships at Lorneville due to a few factors. Turning space, depth (no dredging required), and Spruce Lake and surrounding areas are going to be the focal point of new business for the port. When DP World talked about building an industrial park, they weren't just referring to port lands around the city center. This has always been to expand the city and the tax base to add thousands of jobs besides the one's created directly at the port. This will also spur housing and support businesses that don't even exist today.

On top of that, there will need to be a rail corridor to Lorneville. I have a possible corridor for that already in the works. It may extend south from the wye at the west end of Ponderosa Yard for about 7-8 miles. As I stated before, it won't be cheap or quick, but with the billions of dollars of investment being thrown around, it will be feasible.

What is the draft limitation for the container terminal in the harbour? Is it 17.5m? Is that the limiting factor or is it turning circle? They seem to be keeping LOA of the big 24,000 TEU ships pretty constant at <400m

Google suggests Very Large (20,000+TEU) ships have a draft of 16-18M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_container_ships

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by sailor734

What is the draft limitation for the container terminal in the harbour? Is it 17.5m? Is that the limiting factor or is it turning circle? They seem to be keeping LOA of the big 24,000 TEU ships pretty constant at <400m

Google suggests Very Large (20,000+TEU) ships have a draft of 16-18M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_container_ships

I'm not aware of any ULCS that have an 18 meter draught. Please provide an example if you want to address that, but there are lots of other shortfalls that would need to be corrected first in any case.

The biggest limitation would be docking a 400m ship. The dredged depth of the northern berth is 17.1m, the southern berth is around 12-12.5m as close as I can recall. The northern berth would probably be deep enough, but they haven't yet tied up a ship longer than ~295 meters there. That berth was spec'd to be able to handle 345 meters. Anyway 400 meters is way beyond it's spec. So, it would have to be tied up at the southern berth. But the southern berth only allows ~12m draught. On top of that, the southern berth only has two 50' track gauge cranes that would be unable to reach the height or breadth of the container stacks. Before you even consider bringing a ship like that into the inner harbour, there are significant upgrades that would need to be completed. It would then be necessary to make sure the turning circle and other navigational requirements would work. If there was no other option, it might be able to be done with significant changes, but I am pretty sure the powers that be are looking toward the deep water option. I agree with them. At this point, just set this up at Lorneville and leave the inner harbour to the sub-ULCS.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

I'm not aware of any ULCS that have an 18 meter draught. Please provide an example if you want to address that, but there are lots of other shortfalls that would need to be corrected first in any case.

The biggest limitation would be docking a 400m ship. The dredged depth of the northern berth is 17.1m, the southern berth is around 12-12.5m as close as I can recall. The northern berth would probably be deep enough, but they haven't yet tied up a ship longer than ~295 meters there. That berth was spec'd to be able to handle 345 meters. Anyway 400 meters is way beyond it's spec. So, it would have to be tied up at the southern berth. But the southern berth only allows ~12m draught. On top of that, the southern berth only has two 50' track gauge cranes that would be unable to reach the height or breadth of the container stacks. Before you even consider bringing a ship like that into the inner harbour, there are significant upgrades that would need to be completed. It would then be necessary to make sure the turning circle and other navigational requirements would work. If there was no other option, it might be able to be done with significant changes, but I am pretty sure the powers that be are looking toward the deep water option. I agree with them. At this point, just set this up at Lorneville and leave the inner harbour to the sub-ULCS.

Not sure where I read the 16-18M number and can't find it again now so perhaps I misremembered. I believe it was given as a range for the new Ultra large carriers of over 24,000 TEU's. maybe it was talking about new ships planed/proposed rather than ones actually in operation? From what you say it sounds like LOA (for berth and turning) and size of cranes required to work a VLCs or an ULCS are the limiting factors here rather than draft?

Saint John Harbour is pretty narrow compared to many in the world and I would expect an open area like Lorneville would be considered easier/safer for maneuvering.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

In the Hapag meeting this morning, which included reps from DP World Saint John, SJPA, and CPKC, it was mentioned by SJPA and DPW that 20K+ ships were being planned for - AND that an "industrial park" would be the likely location for that. That confirms my thoughts on that plan.

Also, yes, it is realistic. One of the main reasons 20K ships are not on the NAEC, is because there are no ports deep enough. Lorneville would easily be deep enough. It would be far easier to receive 20K ships at Lorneville due to a few factors. Turning space, depth (no dredging required), and Spruce Lake and surrounding areas are going to be the focal point of new business for the port. When DP World talked about building an industrial park, they weren't just referring to port lands around the city center. This has always been to expand the city and the tax base to add thousands of jobs besides the one's created directly at the port. This will also spur housing and support businesses that don't even exist today.

On top of that, there will need to be a rail corridor to Lorneville. I have a possible corridor for that already in the works. It may extend south from the wye at the west end of Ponderosa Yard for about 7-8 miles. As I stated before, it won't be cheap or quick, but with the billions of dollars of investment being thrown around, it will be feasible.

Isnt Halifax harbour 18m at low tide. It is one of the deepest natural harbours in the world and could theoretically handle the largest ULCS currently at sea if we’re just talking draft. I think it may be the only one on the NAEC though.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by J81

Isnt Halifax harbour 18m at low tide. It is one of the deepest natural harbours in the world and could theoretically handle the largest ULCS currently at sea if we’re just talking draft. I think it may be the only one on the NAEC though.

The harbour itself might be but depths alongside the container berths seem to range from 13.9 to 16.8 With Fairview Cove being the deepest.

https://www.porthalifax.ca/facilities/hpa-facilities/

[bingun]

From tonight's rezoning meeting, a slide from the CEO of Saint John Industrial Parks regarding the marine advantages of the location.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

From tonight's rezoning meeting, a slide from the CEO of Saint John Industrial Parks regarding the marine advantages of the location.

I remember this facility being constructed but I'm fuzzy on the details. Question for anyone with knowledge about this.....Was it built for a specific project? Does it see any significant amount of ongoing use?

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Does anyone have any information about why the proposed deepwater port for Lorneville back in the early 70's that never ended up happening?

Didn't realize this idea has been proposed and discussed that far back... was it going to be an oil exporting facility? Or were containers part of the plans too? It sounded like oil was the main idea for it back then, as I saw many comments about oil spills. Which is pretty ridiculous considering how much oil comes into Saint John on ships without any major incidents.

Will be very interesting to see if this idea of a deepwater port at Lorneville is reimagined as part of this Lorneville expansion.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I remember this facility being constructed but I'm fuzzy on the details. Question for anyone with knowledge about this.....Was it built for a specific project? Does it see any significant amount of ongoing use?

It was built for something related to either IOL or JDI, I forget which. I think it's been used very intermittently since then. In retrospect, it should have been built to accept wind turbine parts too, instead of using Long Wharf.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It was built for something related to either IOL or JDI, I forget which. I think it's been used very intermittently since then. In retrospect, it should have been built to accept wind turbine parts too, instead of using Long Wharf.

Yes, I'd wondered if it was that. Maybe the last big refinery expansion? I seem to remember something huge being moved overnight through town with roads being closed etc.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Does anyone have any information about why the proposed deepwater port for Lorneville back in the early 70's that never ended up happening?

Didn't realize this idea has been proposed and discussed that far back... was it going to be an oil exporting facility? Or were containers part of the plans too? It sounded like oil was the main idea for it back then, as I saw many comments about oil spills. Which is pretty ridiculous considering how much oil comes into Saint John on ships without any major incidents.

Will be very interesting to see if this idea of a deepwater port at Lorneville is reimagined as part of this Lorneville expansion.

This is anecdotal from people I have talked to over the years and some reports I have read, but my understanding was that there were discussions about moving all of the port facilities to the Outer Harbour [Mispec, Red Head, Lorneville, etc.] in part because the dredging costs for the Inner Harbour have always been so high due to being a river estuary (at times ~1/3 of the operating budget), to accommodate larger ships, and to move industrial development away from the core. The current Canaport facilities did end up being built, but some of the other concepts such as moving the container terminal, oil export terminal, etc. never happened for economic reasons.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Yes, I'd wondered if it was that. Maybe the last big refinery expansion? I seem to remember something huge being moved overnight through town with roads being closed etc.

Yes, that is my recollection, a large piece of equipment for the refinery. I don't think it has been used in the last few years, but I could be wrong.