The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Ha!....makes me feel really old. I was a race official at the sailing venue back in '85.

It's great to see the games coming back to NB but it's too bad that costs (I assume) require splitting things up between two cities 150 kms apart. I worry that in some ways it will dilute the experience for both the athletes and people attending. I wonder how they will divide up the various sports?

I was at the announcement and can tell you it will be divided evenly between the two cities. It is truly exciting to see Moncton and Saint John working together on this and recognizing the strengths of each region, taking advantage of the infrastructure both have in place to host the games.

Also of interest to those here, the RFP for the Canada Games Aquatic Centre redesign/enhancement is up on the City's procurement website now.

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by StatelyElms

They did that??? I did notice that while tracking a bus a while back, but I thought it was just their depot or something and it was heading there because it was the last run of the day. Mind-boggling.

I spent a day in Saint John a couple weeks back and loved it every bit as much as I ever have, it's maybe my favourite place in the world... but I was not impressed by the arrival. You're dropped off around the side of the superstore, the MB station is a super temporary-looking hole in the wall, and getting uptown meant climbing up the narrow sidewalk to Thorne Ave, crossing railway tracks and Bayside Drive (which is VERY sketchy as a pedestrian) and all the way up to Westmorland for a bus that winds through the east side then across the causeway. Then you're dropped off at King Sq, which was dreamlike when there was still snow on the ground in Fredericton, but I had hoped I could just cross the parking lot and get on the pedway.

Bus companies all over North America (especially Flixbus and Greyhound) make moves like this a lot, often parking illegally on random city streets rather than paying to use the dedicated terminals, because it looks good on a balance sheet. Nobody seems to clue in that you're making the service worse and discouraging people from taking an intercity bus, which comes back to bite them in the long run. The SJ example is even worse: it moves the bus station (which is will remind you is mostly used by people travelling between cities without a car, to an area very hostile to non-motorists.

The Fredericton station is on a prime development lot, and if it ever sells it'll probably move up to the top of Hanwell because it's easier to get on and off the highway.

[StatelyElms]

Originally Posted by Franco401

I spent a day in Saint John a couple weeks back and loved it every bit as much as I ever have, it's maybe my favourite place in the world... but I was not impressed by the arrival. You're dropped off around the side of the superstore, the MB station is a super temporary-looking hole in the wall, and getting uptown meant climbing up the narrow sidewalk to Thorne Ave, crossing railway tracks and Bayside Drive (which is VERY sketchy as a pedestrian) and all the way up to Westmorland for a bus that winds through the east side then across the causeway. Then you're dropped off at King Sq, which was dreamlike when there was still snow on the ground in Fredericton, but I had hoped I could just cross the parking lot and get on the pedway.

Bus companies all over North America (especially Flixbus and Greyhound) make moves like this a lot, often parking illegally on random city streets rather than paying to use the dedicated terminals, because it looks good on a balance sheet. Nobody seems to clue in that you're making the service worse and discouraging people from taking an intercity bus, which comes back to bite them in the long run. The SJ example is even worse: it moves the bus station (which is will remind you is mostly used by people travelling between cities without a car, to an area very hostile to non-motorists.

The Fredericton station is on a prime development lot, and if it ever sells it'll probably move up to the top of Hanwell because it's easier to get on and off the highway.

Unfortunately. Pretty short-sighted and not helping anything. I know we don't expect much in New Brunswick but you'd think we'd at least coordinate the intercity transit with the municipal transit.. such a low bar! If you'd asked me yesterday, I'd have said "no way they'd shove it onto Regent of all places" but you're probably right if they dump you out on a Loblaw's parking lot now.

The Fredericton Transit master plan did mention something about integrating intermodal transport in a future downtown station (as in, inner-city vs inter-city transit, so Maritime Bus being invited to use it as a station), but nothing has materialized in that regard so far so it would, unfortunately, most likely just go to uptown if it was sold as you mentioned.

[adamuptownsj]

Anyone else following the Lorneville opposition to development of the industrial park? Seems quixotic to me. You moved next door to an industrial park (and a coal generating station!) and you don't expect industry to happen there?

[sailor734]

Just for the record Coleson Cove is oil fired not coal. ( but I take your point)

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I was at the announcement and can tell you it will be divided evenly between the two cities. It is truly exciting to see Moncton and Saint John working together on this and recognizing the strengths of each region, taking advantage of the infrastructure both have in place to host the games.

Also of interest to those here, the RFP for the Canada Games Aquatic Centre redesign/enhancement is up on the City's procurement website now.

That may be but having events so spread out is still a negative in my mind. It's like each city is putting on Canada Games Lite, a 1/2 strength imitation of the real thing.

[ivegotaname]

We need an atlantic sports channel that can be carried by all tv cable companys. Rogers Bell Eastlink Shaw Telus I leave anyone out

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Just for the record Coleson Cove is oil fired not coal. ( but I take your point)

True.

But yeah, I am not sure where they expect industry to develop. Out in the wilderness? There's a couple small streams that cross the industrial park but it's not a pristine area. Nothing is planned south of Marsh Brook and given current environmental policies I doubt they'll put Mill Creek in a culvert or something. Not sure where this mythical wetland that people keep bringing up is.

Maybe shear off some of the land around Split Rock and Black Beach trails, towards Musquash Head (west of Colson Cove), and hand it to the Nature Conservancy. Everything southwest of the transmission lines perhaps.

Musquash Head itself is already protected by the Nature Conservancy, as is the large lot to its north.

Relatedly, the mishmash of federal protected marine areas, Nature Conservancy property, Ducks Unlimited lands, and the huge provincial Loch Alva area to the north should be reorganized as one contiguous park and expanded. Fundy National Park West perhaps. Would give Saint John the distinction of being surrounded by a national park, and would give the Musquash area a tourism boost.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

We need an atlantic sports channel that can be carried by all tv cable companys. Rogers Bell Eastlink Shaw Telus I leave anyone out

It would need to be streaming. Cable TV is so last year.

[DevelopmentAndy]

I realize that he was the Commerce Secretary and did not mean to suggest that he was a member of the House. The point was he celebrated Irving creating those jobs in that area and took ownership of it the last time Trump was in office in something like 2017. I don't agree with the hewers of wood role for Saint Johners. Most Charmin comes from one plant in the US so there is no argument that it is too far. Charmin also gets a lot of their pulp from Canada. Also, there is a large Irving Tissue plant in Toronto and maybe others so at least the eastern US could be covered.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It will increase jobs in both locations, I assume. Even without tariffs, I don't know if it's economical to manufacture tissues for distribution in the Southeast in Saint John.

Wilbur Ross doesn't have a district and never has. He's an ex-cabinet member who seems to split his time between Palm Beach, Manhattan, and the Hamptons. No deep connection to Georgia I can find. The tissue plant is in Democratic Rep. Sanford Bishop's 2nd district, but probably employs a lot of people in Republican Rep. Austin Scott's neighbouring 8th, too.

Either way, a pair of $250K cheques is not good enough. Add a zero.

I realize that he was the Commerce Secretary and did not mean to suggest that he was a member of the House. The point was he celebrated Irving creating those jobs in that area and took ownership of it the last time Trump was in office in something like 2017. I don't agree with the hewers of wood role for Saint Johners. Most Charmin comes from one plant in the US so there is no argument that it is too far. Charmin also gets a lot of their pulp from Canada. Also, there is a large Irving Tissue plant in Toronto and maybe others so at least the eastern US could be covered.

[sailor734]

From the TJ.......

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/council...-rezoning-irving-had-deemed-unacceptable

"Council approves 'unacceptable' compromise on Irving rezoning request
Company official says temporary parking space in Wolastoq Park is not an option"

Reardon split a tie to go with option #3 (Approve parking but for 5 years only, not permanently)

Irving officials said it was "not acceptable" and left the meeting quickly, refusing any other comment

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

From the TJ.......

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/council...-rezoning-irving-had-deemed-unacceptable

"Council approves 'unacceptable' compromise on Irving rezoning request
Company official says temporary parking space in Wolastoq Park is not an option"

Reardon split a tie to go with option #3 (Approve parking but for 5 years only, not permanently)

Irving officials said it was "not acceptable" and left the meeting quickly, refusing any other comment

They acted like children then. You can't claim temporary use for construction on one hand, then also claim it is not acceptable to have the city council approve it as a temporary use. If anything that makes it clear that they had no intention on limiting the use of the area as merely parking for this project.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

They acted like children then. You can't claim temporary use for construction on one hand, then also claim it is not acceptable to have the city council approve it as a temporary use. If anything that makes it clear that they had no intention on limiting the use of the area as merely parking for this project.

They were pretty clear all along that they wanted the parking on a permanent basis. Both for future shutdowns and for those fulltime employees whose parking spaces will be displaced by construction of the new recovery boiler.
The lot was never intended as being temporary and Irving was clear on this when asked.

[bingun]

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out now. To me it seems like they went with the temporary option to counter the backlash without outright denying the request and disrupting the next gen project.

However from Irving’s perspective they now have to build the parking lot and do all the improvements just to remove the parking lot in 5 years. Irving hate capital projects without good long term returns so they’ll be stewing on this.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by bingun

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out now. To me it seems like they went with the temporary option to counter the backlash without outright denying the request and disrupting the next gen project.

However from Irving’s perspective they now have to build the parking lot and do all the improvements just to remove the parking lot in 5 years. Irving hate capital projects without good long term returns so they’ll be stewing on this.

There was never any hard evidence that denying the application would derail the NextGen project. Offsite parking with shuttle buses was (and is) always another option.....all be it less desirable.

The other option of an onsite multistory parking structure would probably have to have been started by now. Although, as a solution to longterm employee parking could still work.

One thing I've never understood about this whole situationis is this..............if using the Centrecare site for commercial or industrial use at some point was always the plan why did Irving agree to buy it without securing a zoning change to commercial before closing as a condition of the P&S agreement? Did they just assume they could get the zoning changed to industrial whenever they wanted? Seems very risky (and a bit arrogant)

[sailor734]

Update on the TJ story......

"JD Irving withdraws Wolastoq Park rezoning application
Company says city placed 'unreasonable conditions' on its request to rezone its own land"

Irving said that by placing unacceptable conditions on the approval council was "effectively denying the application"

I find the phrase "request to rezone it's own land" a little weird. Who else's land would or could they request to rezone?

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

They were pretty clear all along that they wanted the parking on a permanent basis. Both for future shutdowns and for those fulltime employees whose parking spaces will be displaced by construction of the new recovery boiler.
The lot was never intended as being temporary and Irving was clear on this when asked.

You are right, but there were comments in this process along the way about the gravel parking lot surfacing that were made that they tried to sell as less permanent than paving, and other implications. Though that might have just been spokespeople or others getting their intentions mixed up.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Update on the TJ story......

"JD Irving withdraws Wolastoq Park rezoning application
Company says city placed 'unreasonable conditions' on its request to rezone its own land"

Irving said that by placing unacceptable conditions on the approval council was "effectively denying the application"

I find the phrase "request to rezone it's own land" a little weird. Who else's land would or could they request to rezone?

Interesting stuff. I want to see local industry succeed, but I am glad the city has been growing a backbone about these issues lately. If you watch the video of the session last night there were some very frank words exchanged between the mayor and Jim Irving to do with community impacts and in particular that the small financial concessions they tried to make are pennies compared to the impact of these projects which the city will see virtually no tax revenue from and therefore leave the homeowners of the city to pay for.

[sailor734]

Deeper in the TJ article the VP communications for JDI was quoted as saying ........."the company will now proceed with a less efficient, temporary option both for the workers and the company.”

Sounds like offsite parking and shuttle buses were always the backup if they couldn't get the city to roll over.

At least that removes any issue about adding 500+ cars to Simms corner all at once twice a day.