The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I wouldn't say biased, it's all photographs by Chris Donovan, an award-winning photographer who grew up Saint John who has published in national newspapers and magazines across North America. The pics are what the city looks like, and are part of the narrative of both why we love and love to hate Saint John.

The NY Times talking about a "keeping your mouth shut" culture? I didn't read the article because it wanted a subscription to look at it. The headline gave me a pretty good idea of what the content was going to be anyway.

Saint John is a gritty city, like New York itself, as well as many other cities.

In regard to "keeping your mouth shut", almost everything anybody says these days, especially publicly, but anywhere, is evaluated by somebody, or something. Just the knowledge of that is enough to sway too many people to self censor. In that regard, Saint John is no different than anywhere else. You can pick whoever or whatever you want to blame for that. BTW, living on some pretty tree lined street with beautiful yards, etc., etc., does not mean that you are free to open your mouth. It possibly means the exact opposite.

Nevertheless, there is much to look forward to today. If I had the option before me to live in NY or Saint John, my choice is clear.

[bridgeoftea]

The photographs are very beautiful, raw and powerful. You can definitely create those gritty, black and white photos with all the industry around. Conversely, there is a lot of beautiful spots in Saint John and the surrounding areas, if you were to focus on them in bright colour photos, it'd tell a different story.

Reminds me of Sofia in Bulgaria almost.

[bingun]

Originally Posted by Ottawa

When that rail overpass was built in Kingston, that CN mainline was not shut down for more than a few hours, at most. And street traffic was not able to be shut down at all. Street traffic was obviously a bit snarled, especially during rush hours, but it is achievable to build those kinds of things using temporary detours for both street traffic and rail traffic. It would definitely be a hassle during construction, but delaying it tis only going to make it worse at this point.

The port is forecasting 1M TEU. I consider that to be a serious projection. That is way over anything that Halifax has been able to do. It is about 2/3 of what Montreal is currently doing. That means more businesses are going to locate in the city. They will want quick, easy access to the port, as well as in, out of, and around, the city. Traffic at all major intersections should be considered and now is the time to do as much as possible. Simms Corner is probably the most critical part of the entire equation.

It is good to hear that a similar project was possible with minimal downtime. At least, that is something that could be aimed for.

The video below was the one I was thinking of where a tunnel was inserted in a weekend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btOE0rcKDC0

[bingun]

JDI's amended proposal for Wolastoq Park is now available. I am still skimming through the documents, but see below.

Full letter from Mark Mosher - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21387

A letter from Jim Irving - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21394

New Contributions to the West Side

In terms of new public benefit, the applicant is proposing additional contributions to broader recreational projects on the City’s West Side. The items have been identified as follows:

• $250,000 contribution to the next phase of upgrades at Dominion Park.
• $250,000 contribution to the continued extension of Harbour Passage which can be used for the 2025 Cove project or the 2025 Riverview Path as identified in the attached document dated March 10, 2025, entitled “NextGen Parking Accommodations at Wolastoq Park”.
• Open to exploring opportunities to facilitate a trail connection between Fallsview Park and the new New Brunswick Museum site.

The 2021 Master Plan for Dominion Park outlined a series of site improvements that could be undertaken through a phased approach. A defined scope for Phase II of the project has not been formalized. One possible component of Phase II is the development of a playground area at the existing site. Current estimates for the site work and equipment indicate a cost of approximately $750,000. The proposed $250,000 contribution would cover a third (33%) of the overall cost.

The City is undertaking site and slope assessments on the proposed Harbour Passage extension identified as the Cove Project and has not finalized a cost estimate for the proposed project. Based on a conceptual estimate of $1.5 million for the trail, the proposed contribution would cover approximately 17% of the overall cost.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by bingun

JDI's amended proposal for Wolastoq Park is now available. I am still skimming through the documents, but see below.

Full letter from Mark Mosher - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21387

A letter from Jim Irving - https://pub-saintjohn.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=21394

In terms of “horse trading” this is pretty bare bones. We’re talking about the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada and this is the best they can offer? Connecting Wolastoq with the Harbour Passage isn’t nearly as big of an unresolved issue as directly connecting the Carleton Peninsula and Central Peninsula with a pedestrian link is— aka: creating an actual “harbour passage”.

It’s a little disappointing to see a further $250k being prioritized for Dominion Park, which has already seen a lot of big investment recently, instead of Bayshore Beach and Seaside Park which are in much greater need of investment than Dominion Park.

While I’d like to see city council vote for option 3… I’m not holding my breath they will do the right thing here. Granting a permanent rezoning request for what’s being offered here just isn’t worth it. The property in question could be so much more than a temporary/spare parking lot… granting a permanent rezoning for what’s mainly a temporary need would be selling this prominent property in the heart of the West Side incredibly short.

Option 3 seems to be the best option on there, as the parking lot use is temporary, and the property could still be redeveloped into something positive for the neighbourhood, like an ambitious high rise residential development.


Imo, the best option, and only long term vision that deserves permanent rezoning should be for a residential development. JDI could get their temporary parking lot, then turn the project over to a property developer, or built it themselves, since they are the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

In terms of “horse trading” this is pretty bare bones. We’re talking about the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada and this is the best they can offer? Connecting Wolastoq with the Harbour Passage isn’t nearly as big of an unresolved issue as directly connecting the Carleton Peninsula and Central Peninsula with a pedestrian link is— aka: creating an actual “harbour passage”.

It’s a little disappointing to see a further $250k being prioritized for Dominion Park, which has already seen a lot of big investment recently, instead of Bayshore Beach and Seaside Park which are in much greater need of investment than Dominion Park.

While I’d like to see city council vote for option 3… I’m not holding my breath they will do the right thing here. Granting a permanent rezoning request for what’s being offered here just isn’t worth it. The property in question could be so much more than a temporary/spare parking lot… granting a permanent rezoning for what’s mainly a temporary need would be selling this prominent property in the heart of the West Side incredibly short.

Option 3 seems to be the best option on there, as the parking lot use is temporary, and the property could still be redeveloped into something positive for the neighbourhood, like an ambitious high rise residential development.


Imo, the best option, and only long term vision that deserves permanent rezoning should be for a residential development. JDI could get their temporary parking lot, then turn the project over to a property developer, or built it themselves, since they are the largest construction company in Atlantic Canada.

One question for Irving - Is Irving is under pressure to get this done so that the semi-processed raw materials can get to Trump's buddy Wilbur Ross' district to help expand jobs in Macon Georgia where Irving Tissue has doubled its plant size or is this output increase going towards Canadian jobs?

[Helladog]

A train crossing through a roundabout isn't a great option, but has been done:


Yosh on Twitter


Maybe an overpass is an expensive but traffic fixing solution (Not a roundabout, but still works IMO):

[/URL]
13wmaz.com

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by DevelopmentAndy

One question for Irving - Is Irving is under pressure to get this done so that the semi-processed raw materials can get to Trump's buddy Wilbur Ross' district to help expand jobs in Macon Georgia where Irving Tissue has doubled its plant size or is this output increase going towards Canadian jobs?

It will increase jobs in both locations, I assume. Even without tariffs, I don't know if it's economical to manufacture tissues for distribution in the Southeast in Saint John.

Wilbur Ross doesn't have a district and never has. He's an ex-cabinet member who seems to split his time between Palm Beach, Manhattan, and the Hamptons. No deep connection to Georgia I can find. The tissue plant is in Democratic Rep. Sanford Bishop's 2nd district, but probably employs a lot of people in Republican Rep. Austin Scott's neighbouring 8th, too.

Either way, a pair of $250K cheques is not good enough. Add a zero.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Helladog

A train crossing through a roundabout isn't a great option, but has been done:

[...]

Maybe an overpass is an expensive but traffic fixing solution (Not a roundabout, but still works IMO):

[...]

The rail through a roundabout can work but it doesn't solve the main Simm's issue at all: Bridge-Main traffic. My Main-Fairville ramp concept through the Tim's lot would have the same outcome, 90% of the time, at lower cost.

And, isn't the problem with raising the tracks (vs. lowering the road) the rail to the west being substantially lower than the current crossing? You've only got 300m from Main to the junction between Irving and Moosehead to get back down to grade.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Either way, a pair of $250K cheques is not good enough. Add a zero.

If thats the case and number 3 is the option, I think we find ourselves in a rare case of agreement.

Heck, I’d basically be fine with option 3 and no zeros added to the $250k cheques, I’d just rather see the money invested in Bayshore Beach and Seaside Park than Dominion Park and a pretty insignificant stretch of the harbour passage that already has sidewalks.

What I really don’t get is why permanent rezoning is even on the table… a permanent 500 car parking lot in the middle of a mixed residential neighbourhood is objectively worse for the long term prospects of the area than a 5 year temporary parking lot meant to exist for the duration of the expansion project.

That parcel of land is big enough for a very substantial residential development, and it’s as a very prominent location with amazing views of the city… it would be a very cool place to live. A permanent parking lot would be selling this property incredibly short.

[sailor734]

I think the temp approval is the preferred option if JDI isn't prepared to offer some major development dollars for replacement westside greenspaces. 5 years would give them more that enough time to build an onsite parking structure for ongoing parking needs after the NextGen project. I don't think the industrial footprint of the mill should be allowed to expand across Bridge St. on a permanent basis.

[bridgeoftea]

Do we know if there is any activity or potential start date for the Museum expansion project? Been pretty quiet since August last year.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The rail through a roundabout can work but it doesn't solve the main Simm's issue at all: Bridge-Main traffic. My Main-Fairville ramp concept through the Tim's lot would have the same outcome, 90% of the time, at lower cost.

And, isn't the problem with raising the tracks (vs. lowering the road) the rail to the west being substantially lower than the current crossing? You've only got 300m from Main to the junction between Irving and Moosehead to get back down to grade.

I would expect the rail level to stay at the current level, or even slightly lower. They could do some less drastic grade modifications of the rail on the west side of the intersection, behind Moosehead. Trains require 20'-2"+ while highway bridges are 13'-7". The rail below option done properly would also require modification of the throughway grade as well as the rail bridge over top of it. The whole issue between Simms and over the throughway is eliminated with the rail above option.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The rail through a roundabout can work but it doesn't solve the main Simm's issue at all: Bridge-Main traffic. My Main-Fairville ramp concept through the Tim's lot would have the same outcome, 90% of the time, at lower cost.

And, isn't the problem with raising the tracks (vs. lowering the road) the rail to the west being substantially lower than the current crossing? You've only got 300m from Main to the junction between Irving and Moosehead to get back down to grade.

I wonder if some combination of both raising the tracks and lowering the surface roads wouldn't make sense to avoid too steep of a grade change for either?

Google suggests RR's are limited to 1.5% (so a 1.5m change in elevation per 100m) but the standards for arterial roads is 6%. If you dropped the roads slightly less than 4m and raised the tracks 1m the math would work for a 16 clearance under the tracks.

[RaginRonic]

Saint John and Moncton were chosen by the Canada Games Committee to co-host the 2029 Canada Summer Games today.

For Saint John, this will mark the return of the Games after a 44-year absence to the Port City.

For Moncton, this will mark it's Canada Games, Summer or Winter, hosting debut.

[sailor734]

Ha!....makes me feel really old. I was a race official at the sailing venue back in '85.

It's great to see the games coming back to NB but it's too bad that costs (I assume) require splitting things up between two cities 150 kms apart. I worry that in some ways it will dilute the experience for both the athletes and people attending. I wonder how they will divide up the various sports?

[StatelyElms]

I've been wondering if the split games might encourage anything intercity transit-wise between the two cities. It's not unheard of for large sporting events to be paired with transit improvements for the host city, whether permanent or intended to only be available for the games (though oftentimes persisting afterwards).

While this isn't the largest event, it is divided between cities 150 km apart with existing transit being fairly barebones.. I'd imagine that's some hefty incentive to have something better when the time comes, whether just for the games or something more permanent.

[Franco401]

They'll probably run shuttles between cities for the games, which will stop right afterward. This isn't the kind of event that you restart trains for, and Maritime Bus' awful decision to move the SJ station to the Superstore on Rothesay Avenue is the kind of thing that means not many people will be using transit to go between cities.

[StatelyElms]

They did that??? I did notice that while tracking a bus a while back, but I thought it was just their depot or something and it was heading there because it was the last run of the day. Mind-boggling.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Do we know if there is any activity or potential start date for the Museum expansion project? Been pretty quiet since August last year.

There has actually been movement in the last week or 10 days. Project barricades, signage and fencing are up along Douglas Avenue, a project site office has been set up in one of the old homes that were acquired by the province for the project (the one the furthest from the museum itself), and crews have been on-site preparing for the beginning of demolition.