The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[sailor734]

For some reason I've always assumed it would be a road underpass rather than putting the trains in a tunnel.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

For some reason I've always assumed it would be a road underpass rather than putting the trains in a tunnel.

I do worry about what that would do to the street and surroundings though. Main St. West has already lost so much of its community feel, it would be adding insult to injury to bury the street, perhaps having to move businesses or losing homes in the process, and make it feel even more like an industrial park around Simms Corner.

[Gnarly]

Is this for real?

https://www.facebook.com/reel/682900954408128/?s=single_unit&__cft__[0]=AZU035gZC-SSVj1DXA653UbGyBIzZzxj0BMaF2qhi2r_6g95aFQWXSzZbYIc0j-K3PsZEt38HdW6OAEs9UsjEahe6jzGZ4ux1c-sfw0MusGgNlv-QOpalT6J-zsM2w7nuGQhBlslBvGLGDQ2Ps1StzKbBolr1NRGdyn8tRhUBdaB_sN_OPMkqlcY-Rr3PcC6rYrLXemcvPFBwnemmZwjQ--X0fquhRONGwd_z3H6gij98uTAGAbgIHDiJ-kWOuC8yoY&__tn__=H-R

[KnoxfordGuy]

No. April fools joke

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

For some reason I've always assumed it would be a road underpass rather than putting the trains in a tunnel.

I guess the big question will be which solution will have the least disruptive impact on the current rail infrastructure it is designed to replace or enhance.

Tunnels would be the logical guess in terms of what will disrupt current operations, but the question is where would the tunnel start?

Saint John should take advantage of having Prime Minister who "wants to build" and is likely going to get a majority government, to really get ambitious with how tunnels could enhance the operations of Port Saint John. UptownAdam's got the right idea, but he's not thinking big enough with just wanting a short tunnel from behind CUPE offices and the pulp mill, just like he's not thinking big enough when it comes to horse trading with JDI over their Wolastoq Park proposal. If tunnels are going to be solution to Simms Corner, then let's figure out a way to start the tunnel at the port, or at the Bayshore trainyard, and not just do the bare minimum to circumvent Simms Corner. The long term vision could be for tunnels to connect the port's operations across the harbour, and for pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists to get a tunnel between the West Side and Uptown out this massive infrastructure project. Tunnels could be an amazing solution for Saint John, but not if we're myopic about it, as UptownAdam so often is.




Pretend there's also a solution for a tunnel between the West Side the Pulp Mill to the southwest of this map.

The amount of earth that would need to be moved to construct 5km or more of tunnels tunnels, along with further dredging, could be repurposed to reclaim a lot of new land for port use.

Reclaiming land for port use isn't exactly something new for Saint John either, as a huge part of port lands on the West Side on the ocean side of the tracks, is reclaimed land from massive public works projects that started well over a century ago. The big difference between then and now, however, is tunnelling technology has become exponentially cheaper and safer. A few tunnels could go a long with in enhancing the ports operations, especially taking in to account the land reclamation piece... Courtney Bay Causeway could transformed into a critical piece of port infrastructure for the entire country, built mostly out of earth moved from the construction of tunnels it would be connected to. Yes, it would cost billions, but it would absolutely be worth it for Canada in the long term.

Considering Saint John is the oldest incorporated city, I think we're long overdue for such a massive project... especially considering the strategic importance of our port.

[darkharbour]

I appreciate your ambition on this topic, but tunnelling through the areas you highlighted isn't just moving earth, much of that is solid bedrock and would probably take billions given the present cost of infrastructure for just one of those tunnels. For the equivalent we could address the city's existing road and rail infrastructure deficit and modernize the rest of the port's assets, satisfying your desire for massive projects while also not creating a white whale that wouldn't make the lives of any Saint Johner any better.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

I appreciate your ambition on this topic, but tunnelling through the areas you highlighted isn't just moving earth, much of that is solid bedrock and would probably take billions given the present cost of infrastructure for just one of those tunnels. For the equivalent we could address the city's existing road and rail infrastructure deficit and modernize the rest of the port's assets, satisfying your desire for massive projects while also not creating a white whale that wouldn't make the lives of any Saint Johner any better.

A car/pedestrian tunnel between the West Side and Uptown would be hugely beneficial for many Saint Johners.

As for the cost, it depends on on how ambitious the tunnelling projects were. There have been quite a lot of advances in the field in just the last decade alone.

This type of plan wouldn’t just modernize the port’s infrastructure, it would greatly expand it… which I’d hardly call a white wale or white elephant. The federal government doesn’t really care about road infrastructure in Saint John, but it certainly cares about expanding Port Saint John’s operations… especially in the context of this newfound trade crisis Canada finds itself in.

[sailor734]

How does a railway tunnel under Saint John Harbour (even it was in any way, shape or form practical)solve the problem of NB Southern trains crossing Simms Corner on the way to Maine and connections with CPKC and CSX?

The issue is about getting trains out of the westside container port and on their way to Brownville Junction or Mattawamkeag in Maine.

[bingun]

Are there any recent examples of projects like Simms Corner, and how much disruption they caused during construction?

When we start talking about changing the grade and building overpasses or underpasses, it is major work, and I assume the railway is completely out of action during that time. How problematic would that be for the port and the shipping companies?

I remember seeing some videos of highway overpasses in Europe being rebuilt in a weekend to minimize disruption with huge workforces and pre-built components, but based on other local infrastructure projects, I doubt that is on the cards.

[sailor734]

While you could close or seriously limit the road intersection for a period of time I don't see how you could stop rail traffic from the port for more than a matter of hours or at most a day or two at a time. I suppose you could do all the approaches etc and then do the actual cutting under the rail bed itself and shoring it up very quickly......but it would require exceptional planning, coordination and choreography. Seems like it will be quite the engineering challenge.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by sailor734

While you could close or seriously limit the road intersection for a period of time I don't see how you could stop rail traffic from the port for more than a matter of hours or at most a day or two at a time. I suppose you could do all the approaches etc and then do the actual cutting under the rail bed itself and shoring it up very quickly......but it would require exceptional planning, coordination and choreography. Seems like it will be quite the engineering challenge.

Honestly, I'd just hand it to Irving to do. The massive retaining wall they built just over the hillside went up quickly and efficiently, more than any 'public' works. I'm sure the port could handle being trainless for a week or two, if the overpass could be built in a modular fashion, and they got two tracks after. I guess it depends on whether the ground is solid rock or not.

Regarding the road underpass, that sounds more feasible, especially with knowledge of the serious grade requirement for trains. You'd have to start behind the Bowlarama.

I don't think this would even harm what's left of Main Street. Most of the economic area is west of Ready. Other than the Tim's and Romano's, this area is already a dead zone. It's not like Moncton's underpass in the middle of downtown is a serious problem. As long as the downward grade started east of Mill, and the project included a realignment of Mill and Harding, it would be fine.

Couple this with my south-of-the-tracks Main-Fairville ramp, and the only issue remaining would be Fairville to Lancaster... but I'd assume most of that traffic goes through Bleury today anyway.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

How does a railway tunnel under Saint John Harbour (even it was in any way, shape or form practical)solve the problem of NB Southern trains crossing Simms Corner on the way to Maine and connections with CPKC and CSX?

The issue is about getting trains out of the westside container port and on their way to Brownville Junction or Mattawamkeag in Maine.

There would also be a tunnel that would go under Simms Corner. Where that tunnel should start is a big question.

[jonny golden]

I've often thought of the concept of elevated rail lines. Being from Moncton, we have train tracks that go right through our downtown. There have been several accidents at these "level crossings" over the years, many of which have involved pedestrians. I know that cost is always an issue, but what a difference it would make for the streets. Could this concept be used in Saint John?

Elevated tracks are fairly common in large cities.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Saint John was featured in the Times today. Not sure if it made the actual newspaper, though. Not the most flattering article, and they seemed to go out of their way to take some seriously biased pics. Nonetheless, it’s an interesting read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/01/world/canada/irving-family-canada-oil-environment.html

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I guess the big question will be which solution will have the least disruptive impact on the current rail infrastructure it is designed to replace or enhance.

Tunnels would be the logical guess in terms of what will disrupt current operations, but the question is where would the tunnel start?

Saint John should take advantage of having Prime Minister who "wants to build" and is likely going to get a majority government, to really get ambitious with how tunnels could enhance the operations of Port Saint John. UptownAdam's got the right idea, but he's not thinking big enough with just wanting a short tunnel from behind CUPE offices and the pulp mill, just like he's not thinking big enough when it comes to horse trading with JDI over their Wolastoq Park proposal. If tunnels are going to be solution to Simms Corner, then let's figure out a way to start the tunnel at the port, or at the Bayshore trainyard, and not just do the bare minimum to circumvent Simms Corner. The long term vision could be for tunnels to connect the port's operations across the harbour, and for pedestrians, cyclists, and motorists to get a tunnel between the West Side and Uptown out this massive infrastructure project. Tunnels could be an amazing solution for Saint John, but not if we're myopic about it, as UptownAdam so often is.




Pretend there's also a solution for a tunnel between the West Side the Pulp Mill to the southwest of this map.

The amount of earth that would need to be moved to construct 5km or more of tunnels tunnels, along with further dredging, could be repurposed to reclaim a lot of new land for port use.

Reclaiming land for port use isn't exactly something new for Saint John either, as a huge part of port lands on the West Side on the ocean side of the tracks, is reclaimed land from massive public works projects that started well over a century ago. The big difference between then and now, however, is tunnelling technology has become exponentially cheaper and safer. A few tunnels could go a long with in enhancing the ports operations, especially taking in to account the land reclamation piece... Courtney Bay Causeway could transformed into a critical piece of port infrastructure for the entire country, built mostly out of earth moved from the construction of tunnels it would be connected to. Yes, it would cost billions, but it would absolutely be worth it for Canada in the long term.

Considering Saint John is the oldest incorporated city, I think we're long overdue for such a massive project... especially considering the strategic importance of our port.

Why go to that much trouble when for a fraction of the cost you could build an all-new deep water port near Lorneville or Canaport with full road and rail access and room in every direction to expand.

That's basically what Shanghai did (on a much bigger scale)

[Ottawa]

When that rail overpass was built in Kingston, that CN mainline was not shut down for more than a few hours, at most. And street traffic was not able to be shut down at all. Street traffic was obviously a bit snarled, especially during rush hours, but it is achievable to build those kinds of things using temporary detours for both street traffic and rail traffic. It would definitely be a hassle during construction, but delaying it tis only going to make it worse at this point.

The port is forecasting 1M TEU. I consider that to be a serious projection. That is way over anything that Halifax has been able to do. It is about 2/3 of what Montreal is currently doing. That means more businesses are going to locate in the city. They will want quick, easy access to the port, as well as in, out of, and around, the city. Traffic at all major intersections should be considered and now is the time to do as much as possible. Simms Corner is probably the most critical part of the entire equation.

[Ottawa]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Why go to that much trouble when for a fraction of the cost you could build an all-new deep water port near Lorneville or Canaport with full road and rail access and room in every direction to expand.

That's basically what Shanghai did (on a much bigger scale)

I understand your idea, and I have considered it. I don't think it would be cheap, or quick. But it is possibly the way that the port will expand in the future.

[sailor734]

If we go to a 5x increase in TEU coming out of the port level RR crossings at major arterials are going to have to go. Simms Corner is the only one on the Westside that I can think of. Road to Milford and the River Road to Grand Bay already have RR overpasses. Sand Cove Rd and Sherbrooke ST are the only other level crossings I can think of and they aren't really high traffic streets.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Why go to that much trouble when for a fraction of the cost you could build an all-new deep water port near Lorneville or Canaport with full road and rail access and room in every direction to expand.

That's basically what Shanghai did (on a much bigger scale)

That could be quite an interesting approach… the Yangshan deep water port is seriously impressive.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangshan_Port

What the Faroe Islands have done with undersea tunnels is also very impressive.

I still think tunnels are a very interesting option worth exploring and comparing costs with other alternatives. Regardless, we should be thinking bigger, and thinking about ways to do things differently in Saint John and New Brunswick… especially in response to this trade crisis which is also a great opportunity.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Saint John was featured in the Times today. Not sure if it made the actual newspaper, though. Not the most flattering article, and they seemed to go out of their way to take some seriously biased pics. Nonetheless, it’s an interesting read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/01/world/canada/irving-family-canada-oil-environment.html

I wouldn't say biased, it's all photographs by Chris Donovan, an award-winning photographer who grew up Saint John who has published in national newspapers and magazines across North America. The pics are what the city looks like, and are part of the narrative of both why we love and love to hate Saint John.