Mobility Master Plan (Transportation Planning)

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by CanadianTalk

I usually support widening roads from 2 to 4 lanes, but beyond that... I believe we have to start thinking outside the box and offer different solutions (rather than endlessly widen it).... whether it's like what Mr Slippery said above, maybe changing the turn lane configurations at busy intersections, add transit jump lanes at problematic intersections, or rapid transit lanes itself... which is what staff had recommended for Wonderland.

Lastly, there is absolutely a demand for rapid transit along Wonderland given the current high-density that exists along the corridor today... and statistically speaking, residents in these dense housing areas are more likely to take transit.... and there are thousands and thousands of high-density housing units already approved along the corridor (ie: Wonderland/Oxford/Beaverbrook area, or York Dev's development of high-rises near Southdale and Wonderland).

There is demand for rapid transit on Wonderland no question, feels like it would be much better use of funding rather than 6 lanes.

6 lanes would end up taking 5+ years and would show no real value. Rapid transit and better intersection managment would improve flow dramatically.

[jammer139]

What, like the millions budgeted to install an all new computerized traffic light management system a couple of years ago. Nothing but crickets on this project status and for all we can tell zero progress.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by jammer139

What, like the millions budgeted to install an all new computerized traffic light management system a couple of years ago. Nothing but crickets on this project status and for all we can tell zero progress.

According to this it isn't completed yet. It takes time to upgrade that many traffic lights

[CanadianTalk]

^ correct

It says that the project is estimated to finish by 2027 ... and IIRC the timeline was pre-covid, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's delayed by another year or 2

Looking forward to seeing if this actually improves traffic flow

https://london.ca/living-london/roads-si...c-management/intelligent-traffic-signals

[jammer139]

Ring Road debate in the future?

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/london-councillors-push-for-ring-road-talks

[GreatTallNorth2]

Widening Wonderland to 6 lanes is a non-starter, but having a proper highway system around the city would not bother me, especially starting with VMP becoming a proper divided highway with interchanges.

[haljackey]

If you're trying to go cross town, such as Highbury to Hyde Park, Medway Road is fast and in good shape compared to Fanshawe and Sunningdale. The time savings using it more than makes up for the extra min or so it takes to get to / from it. It's 80 the whole way except for a short stretch in front of Medway high school.

If a freeway was ever made it would need to be built as far north as Medway.

[MrSlippery519]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but if the city had any forward thinking they could have planned for a freeway on the north end of the city 20+ years ago. For some reason they continue to ignore the need and build right up to these roads. Sunningdale could have been used if they had set it up properly when they started building there, same with Westdel Bourne and so on.

Medway would be great, heck they could even build a loop north of Arva to no have traffic into the city. I am certain they wont do this and 20 years from now we will be talking about using Eight Mile Road instead

[CanadianTalk]

I don't watch council and committee meetings that often, but I did tune in today since they were discussing the Mobility Master Plan...

Councillors voted today (as a committee) to approve the Mobility Master Plan maps, which I reposted below, with some amendments:

• widen Wonderland to six car lanes (instead of rapid transit)
• start discussion w/ province and neighbouring county for ring road around London
• remove proposed cycling infrastructure on some small neighbourhood streets
• remove proposed cycling infrastructure on Huron Street
• remove proposed Gainsborough to Windermere pedestrian/cycling bridge (sorry Molson )
• move ahead with Bradley Avenue widening (Wellington to Highbury) sooner; from long term (2045 to 2050) to near term (now to 2035)

Very very disappointed with some of these amendments, for reasons stated in earlier posts, but removing the Huron bike lanes makes zero sense... there is plenty of space in the boulevard for much of it, and Huron is an arterial road that connects schools, retail, new infill, apartment buildings (etc) to several major arterials, and the TVP itself.

Since council only met today as a committee, this still needs to be approved again at the Council meeting next week on April 1st. Some of the amendments were very close votes so a councillor could change their vote on some of them.

[jammer139]

Stunning display of lack of vision at committee. Hopefully some of these bad choices are reversed at full council.

[ericmacm]

Incredibly disappointing. I wrote to my ward councillor. I would suggest you all do the same.

[jammer139]

LFP article on committee vote.

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/traf...es-ring-road-wider-wonderland-road-plans

[haljackey]

I think starting conversations with the country/province about a ring road would at least be sobering. We'd get an estimated route and cost and basically say no way Jose. That ship sailed long ago.

---

Widening Wonderland to 6 lanes and then later taking that new car lane away for BRT is never going to going to work. There will simply be too much opposition from drivers and the only way you'd get a bus lane is with further widening.
-Not to mention the Wonderland widening would take like 5 years of pure construction hell to build. If you're going to do it, do it right (BRT first)

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I think starting conversations with the country/province about a ring road would at least be sobering. We'd get an estimated route and cost and basically say no way Jose. That ship sailed long ago.

I have no problem with a ring road. It will push some traffic out of the city and around the city which means arterial roads won't have as much traffic. Although I want to see more investment in transit in the city, limited access highways work better than roads like Wonderland, Wellington, etc. because they are higher speed and limited access points. We can always say no to development outside the ring road. Most cities, including the ones in Europe that are highly walkable and transit centred have highways. I would prefer a highway to more stroads.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

I have no problem with a ring road. It will push some traffic out of the city and around the city which means arterial roads won't have as much traffic. Although I want to see more investment in transit in the city, limited access highways work better than roads like Wonderland, Wellington, etc. because they are higher speed and limited access points. We can always say no to development outside the ring road. Most cities, including the ones in Europe that are highly walkable and transit centred have highways. I would prefer a highway to more stroads.

I mostly agree, but the city simply can't afford it. If a ring road was ever built, it would need to be a fully provincially funded freeway. They'd have to (re)take over the VMP as a provincial highway and extend/curve it.

Given how far away it needs to be away from town now, I can't see it being much of a time savings for local drivers now unless you live north of Fanshawe Park Road and want to get to the 401/402. However given how much growth there's been in this area of town, there will certainly be more demand for such a route in the long term.

I should add that since all of London's ridings went NDP- I don't think Douggie wants spend a single cent more in this town than he has to.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Widening Wonderland to 6 lanes and then later taking that new car lane away for BRT is never going to going to work. There will simply be too much opposition from drivers and the only way you'd get a bus lane is with further widening.
-Not to mention the Wonderland widening would take like 5 years of pure construction hell to build. If you're going to do it, do it right (BRT first)

Wouldn't the smartest step be to to expand Wonderland with a dedicated rapid transit line as the government would end up chipping in a substantial portion given the nature of the project? As you said there is no logic in widening to 6 lanes and then trying to take those back for rapid transit it would never work plus would end up costing London far more in the end.

[Djeffery]

Should BRT on Wonderland even be the next rapid transit route? I would say the former north and west routes should be up next and who knows when those will be done. Or at least when the next debate about more BRT (or should it be LRT by then?) will even happen.

And yes, a ring road will push development out that way, but realistically, that development is going to happen anyway. What are the population projections for the next 30 years again? That isn't all going to happen in apartment buildings along Wellington or Oxford.

[inimrepus]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Should BRT on Wonderland even be the next rapid transit route? I would say the former north and west routes should be up next and who knows when those will be done. Or at least when the next debate about more BRT (or should it be LRT by then?) will even happen.

And yes, a ring road will push development out that way, but realistically, that development is going to happen anyway. What are the population projections for the next 30 years again? That isn't all going to happen in apartment buildings along Wellington or Oxford.

I think that realistically we need a lot more rapid transit routes. I think they need to add the north and west routes, as well as routes along Wonderland, Fanshawe Park Rd, and Southdale

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Should BRT on Wonderland even be the next rapid transit route? I would say the former north and west routes should be up next and who knows when those will be done. Or at least when the next debate about more BRT (or should it be LRT by then?) will even happen.

Ideally, no. Wonderland should not be the next BRT route. But if council continues to defeat the west and north routes, then we may as well build RT here if it can be greenlit.

The main issue council has with those legs is a lack of a dedicated BRT lane in some spots- buses will run in mixed traffic on Wharncliffe for example. However for the south route they seem fine having the BRT merge with mixed traffic under the Wellington CN underpass?

Wonderland has enough right of way for a bus lane each way. Not sure if the Guy Lombardo Bridge will be expanded or if you'd get buses running mixed here? The bus lane might need to deviate from the mainline to go under the CN line, and the CP bridge get expanded.

But ya, still seems like a longer term goal anyway. My argument is that we need to do BRT from the get-go and not general widening. That's the only way we would qualify for funding from the province/feds anyway.

But building a Wonderland BRT without at least the west leg BRT to connect to it seems foolish- but it would give council an extra incentive to find and approve connecting route to link the Wonderland BRT with the Downtown Loop.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Should BRT on Wonderland even be the next rapid transit route? I would say the former north and west routes should be up next and who knows when those will be done. Or at least when the next debate about more BRT (or should it be LRT by then?) will even happen.

And yes, a ring road will push development out that way, but realistically, that development is going to happen anyway. What are the population projections for the next 30 years again? That isn't all going to happen in apartment buildings along Wellington or Oxford.

Not ideally, I think the main logic would be if they city is determined on doing something on Wonderland it would be much better use of funding, plus the governments would contribute a portion if marked for rapid transit use.