VIA Rail

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

All the more reason for VIA to be trying to diversity and do more in general. Because they are on the verge of losing their Golden Goose with the Corridor, and missed the boat to have a second golden goose (Ed-Cal).

They need to be doing something to improve the situation one way or another.

SJ to HFX seems like a no brainer. The track is already mostly there, it goes through one of the fastest growing cities in the country, and would service another large city, and the distances are almost perfect for rail. I wouldn't call it a golden goose route like the other two, but it would certainly be an obvious situation that would only get better as the Maritime cities keep growing.

As has been explained a million fucking times before. VIA doesn't get to decide where they operate. They are told what routes to serve by the government, as in the politicians. When your MPs cry about highways more than VIA service that is what you'll get.

[Taeolas]

So you're saying it's VIA's problem and the Government's problem but neither of their problems.

Ultimately VIA is the face of PAX Rail for most of the country (like Amtrak is in the States), so if people want to see something they will tend to be addressing it to VIA one way or another. Thus they should be looking at the lay of the land and going to the appropriate Ministers for expansion and service improvement ideas.

And remember this current train of discussion, I was saying that following the HSR announcement, Justin should have been announcing plans for improving PAX service around the rest of the country as well (at which point it was pointed out that that wasn't the governments call... and yet it is).

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

So you're saying it's VIA's problem and the Government's problem but neither of their problems.

Ultimately VIA is the face of PAX Rail for most of the country (like Amtrak is in the States), so if people want to see something they will tend to be addressing it to VIA one way or another. Thus they should be looking at the lay of the land and going to the appropriate Ministers for expansion and service improvement ideas.

And remember this current train of discussion, I was saying that following the HSR announcement, Justin should have been announcing plans for improving PAX service around the rest of the country as well (at which point it was pointed out that that wasn't the governments call... and yet it is).

Which part of „if VIA does not get a new non-Corridor fleet by 2035, none of its routes outside the Quebec-Windsor Corridor will survive!“ do you struggle to understand?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

So you're saying it's VIA's problem and the Government's problem but neither of their problems.

Ultimately VIA is the face of PAX Rail for most of the country (like Amtrak is in the States), so if people want to see something they will tend to be addressing it to VIA one way or another. Thus they should be looking at the lay of the land and going to the appropriate Ministers for expansion and service improvement ideas.

You're asking VIA to actively lobby the government on political ideas. I don't think you understand how public service works.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

And remember this current train of discussion, I was saying that following the HSR announcement, Justin should have been announcing plans for improving PAX service around the rest of the country as well (at which point it was pointed out that that wasn't the governments call... and yet it is).

Which is exactly why they are working on buying a new long haul fleet.

Honestly, maybe Poilievre closing up VIA and privatizing the Corridor is what some of you need to finally understand the difference between the bureaucracy at a Crown Corporation and politicians legislating.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

As has been explained a million fucking times before. VIA doesn't get to decide where they operate. They are told what routes to serve by the government, as in the politicians. When your MPs cry about highways more than VIA service that is what you'll get.

At the end of the day I think provinces need something like GO Transit or TransLink to get reasonable service. Alberta would have to implement service for Calgary-Edmonton and NS and NB should coordinate on intercity public transport in the Maritimes (they already do for buses somewhat).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

At the end of the day I think provinces need something like GO Transit or TransLink to get reasonable service. Alberta would have to implement service for Calgary-Edmonton and NS and NB should coordinate on intercity public transport in the Maritimes (they already do for buses somewhat).

If the passenger line crosses an interprovincial boundary, doesn't it fall under federal jurisdiction and not provincial?

This would be a major stumbling block to establishing a passenger rail service on the Halifax/Truro/Moncton/Saint John corridor.

Of course, I imagine the NS and NB governments could go to the feds and to VIA Rail with a joint proposal of some kind, but, the negotiations amongst NB.NS, the federal government, VIA Rail and the CNR (which owns the trackage) would be tortuous, tedious and quite lengthy - almost to the point of making it not worthwhile.

BTW, what happens to the VIA Rail corridor service if this new HSR proposal comes to fruition. Won't this gut the majority of VIA's central Canadian routes? What will VIA's mandate be after this happens???

[foolworm]

It depends on what the relationship VIA has to Alto. If the latter inherits the HFR structure, then it is a subsidiary of VIA and there are no issues -- VIA still keeps the revenues but pays Cadence according to whatever terms of its contract are.

On the other hand, if Alto is separate from VIA then the latter's position just becomes that much worse, which is already the case with its steady deterioration over the years.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

BTW, what happens to the VIA Rail corridor service if this new HSR proposal comes to fruition. Won't this gut the majority of VIA's central Canadian routes? What will VIA's mandate be after this happens???

We saw when the the original RFI and draft RFP came out that the Corridor will be privatized. Alto will take over the Corridor. VIA will be reduced to non-Corridor routes.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If the passenger line crosses an interprovincial boundary, doesn't it fall under federal jurisdiction and not provincial?

This would be a major stumbling block to establishing a passenger rail service on the Halifax/Truro/Moncton/Saint John corridor.

Of course, I imagine the NS and NB governments could go to the feds and to VIA Rail with a joint proposal of some kind, but, the negotiations amongst NB.NS, the federal government, VIA Rail and the CNR (which owns the trackage) would be tortuous, tedious and quite lengthy - almost to the point of making it not worthwhile.

BTW, what happens to the VIA Rail corridor service if this new HSR proposal comes to fruition. Won't this gut the majority of VIA's central Canadian routes? What will VIA's mandate be after this happens???

Federal jurisdiction for regulatory and labour. That's why municipal transit operators OC Transpo, STO and Transit Windsor fall under the federal realm due to their routes which cross provincial and international boundaries.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We saw when the the original RFI and draft RFP came out that the Corridor will be privatized. Alto will take over the Corridor. VIA will be reduced to non-Corridor routes.

As you said politicians decide rail service so this is basically irrelevant. The idea the corridor was some big cash cow subsidizing the rest of the network isn't true. You would think if we spend $60B they will want to solidify some of the rest of Via or at least not be seen to be gutting it.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The idea the corridor was some big cash cow subsidizing the rest of the network isn't true.

If the Corridor doesn‘t recover enough of its costs to subsidize the remaining network, then how do you explain that VIA‘s overall subsidy need decreased (rather than increased!) between 2014 and 2019 (as shown in the respective Annual Reports), as its Corridor schedules expanded:

• ⁠Train miles increased from 6.16 to 6.93 million (+12.5%)
• ⁠Passenger-miles increased from 832 million to 1.055 billion (+26.8%)
• ⁠Revenues increased from $280.3 to $411.1 million (+46.7%)
• ⁠Operating expenses increased from $597.4 to $691.8 million (+15.8%)
• ⁠Operating deficit decreased from $317.1 million to $280.7 million (-11.5%, or -17.6% if adjusted for inflation)

We can note from the above that as VIA’s output (i.e., train miles operated) increased by 12.5%, its ridership (+27%) and revenues (+47%) rose much faster than its costs (+16%), thus decreasing the overall subsidy needs.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As you said politicians decide rail service so this is basically irrelevant.

If the politicians tell you that it is their intention to sever the Corridor from VIA and privatize it, that is actually quite relevant. The Corridor is something like 80% or more of VIA's ridership. So VIA outside the Corridor would actually be quite a small organization. This is a substantial change. I'm not going to comment on whether this is good or bad. Only that it is relevant and should be big news. It's also partly why the NDP has expressed substantial skepticism on Alto. They don't like the idea of privatization.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

If the Corridor doesn‘t recover enough of its costs to subsidize the remaining network, then how do you explain that VIA‘s overall subsidy need decreased (rather than increased!) between 2014 and 2019 (as shown in the respective Annual Reports), as its Corridor schedules expanded:

• ⁠Train miles increased from 6.16 to 6.93 million (+12.5%)
• ⁠Passenger-miles increased from 832 million to 1.055 billion (+26.8%)
• ⁠Revenues increased from $280.3 to $411.1 million (+46.7%)
• ⁠Operating expenses increased from $597.4 to $691.8 million (+15.8%)
• ⁠Operating deficit decreased from $317.1 million to $280.7 million (-11.5%, or -17.6% if adjusted for inflation)

We can note from the above that as VIA’s output (i.e., train miles operated) increased by 12.5%, its ridership (+27%) and revenues (+47%) rose much faster than its costs (+16%), thus decreasing the overall subsidy needs.

Exactly. Once the Corridor is off the books, we'll really get to see how much these rural, long haul routes cost.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the politicians tell you that it is their intention to sever the Corridor from VIA and privatize it, that is actually quite relevant.

If the corridor is cleaved off of VIA, then VIA ceases to be a "national" passenger train service. It will exist in two parts - Toronto westward and Montreal eastward.

If VIA is no longer a national service, does it remain relevant as a transportation service? Will it devolve into a couple of tourist trains, and nothing more?

I would think such a move as ultimately quite regressive, especially at a time where intercity rain services should be promoted.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If the corridor is cleaved off of VIA, then VIA ceases to be a "national" passenger train service. It will exist in two parts - Toronto westward and Montreal eastward.

If VIA is no longer a national service, does it remain relevant as a transportation service? Will it devolve into a couple of tourist trains, and nothing more?

I would think such a move as ultimately quite regressive, especially at a time where intercity rain services should be promoted.

As long as the federal government does not change VIA‘s mandate (beyond simply removing the Quebec-Windsor Corridor), this will be only a question of federal funding…

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If VIA is no longer a national service, does it remain relevant as a transportation service? Will it devolve into a couple of tourist trains, and nothing more?

There must be very little cross-country traffic from Vancouver to Halifax. And there probably isn't even much from Vancouver to Edmonton (you can't go to Calgary by VIA) or to Toronto.

Maybe we should think about dropping the pretense that there is or should be a rail service with national coverage and re-imagine how passenger rail should best be used where it makes sense. It is good for medium-distance regional transport while airplanes have an advantage over longer distances or more difficult geography.

I think the biggest hurdles here have little to do with engineering challenges or inherent costs versus demand. Examples:

- Politics and inability to run the operations where and when they make sense. VIA mostly exists in its current form due to history, not because it is what is best today.
- CN and CP ownership of rail lines with no long-term vision of how to ensure good quality infrastructure in Canada and reasonable public access to rail where useful.
- Onerous red tape that makes it hard to build things, assemble land, operate some kinds of trains, etc. This is not specific to rail and is one of the biggest factors contributing to our declining standard of living.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If the corridor is cleaved off of VIA, then VIA ceases to be a "national" passenger train service. It will exist in two parts - Toronto westward and Montreal eastward.

If VIA is no longer a national service, does it remain relevant as a transportation service? Will it devolve into a couple of tourist trains, and nothing more?

I would think such a move as ultimately quite regressive, especially at a time where intercity rain services should be promoted.

If that happens one could assume that the Canadian would run out of Montreal instead of Toronto like it originally did.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J81

If that happens one could assume that the Canadian would run out of Montreal instead of Toronto like it originally did.

Would actually be better to see the Canadian move back to Montreal where VIA has a real hub with the Ocean and the two Quebec regional trains. Leave Union in Toronto to GO + Northlander + Corridor services.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by J81

If that happens one could assume that the Canadian would run out of Montreal instead of Toronto like it originally did.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Would actually be better to see the Canadian move back to Montreal where VIA has a real hub with the Ocean and the two Quebec regional trains. Leave Union in Toronto to GO + Northlander + Corridor services.

Friendly reminder that no tracks exist anymore along the Ottawa river, so Toronto will have to remain the terminus for the Canadian. As for the need for equipment moves between Montreal and Toronto, the Venture trains will continue to serve the Kingston Subdivision and have American Couplers, which should allow for dragging one or two HEP cars at a time…

[J81]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Friendly reminder that no tracks exist anymore along the Ottawa river, so Toronto will have to remain the terminus for the Canadian. As for the need for equipment moves between Montreal and Toronto, the Venture trains will continue to serve the Kingston Subdivision and have American Couplers, which should allow for dragging one or two HEP cars at a time…

Good point. I was thinking though that VIA could still run the Canadian from Montreal to Toronto and then west if it was required to consolidate long distance services from MTL.

Regarding the Venture fleet though, i have heard that Siemens has a clause in the contract that forbids VIA from using any other equipment ( ie-HEP, LRC ) in conjunction with Venture trainsets for 15 years except in emergency situations. Given the current situation with the crossing supplement imposed by CN, as well as the quality and control issues, it looks as though the Venture fleet procurement has gone off the rails. Pun intended.