High Speed Rail in Canada

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think this pressing time is the perfect opportunity to invest in large domestic projects. Projects which would make work in an era of potential economic malaise, provide a positive and prestigious vision for something we can do on our own, and have immense practical applications making it different from some of the vanity projects countries embarked on in the cold war era. Great way to distract from the doom and gloom and build national confidence.

Fact is, we're the last G7 country not to have HSR and there are even many less developed countries that have it. So that absence was just another symbol people could point to when arguing against our legitimacy as a country. Which again wouldn't make a large project worth it alone, but it certainly adds to an already strong case.

Canada. The accidental G7 country that doesn't understand anything beyond being an American resource colony. Other countries: We need to tie our major economic centres together so that they we're more competitive overall. Canadians: Fuck those Ontarians and Quebecers for wanting to make traveling from Toronto to Montreal easier.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nothing is being blown. It's a 5 year $4B design contract. And it's a 10 year construction which the government of the day (in 2029/203) gets to decide on, after the design phase. It's also a project that is actually necessary to integrate all these regions better.

I bet you think every transit project is a waste too.

I personally think that we should have built HSR (at least the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto segment) back in the 1980s. It always made sense given the population share and density, and the extensive economic, political and social links between these cities (3 of the largest 6 in Canada, including the two biggest). Had we built it in the 1980s, by now the HSR network would certainly have been extended to Windsor and Quebec city (perhaps with further HSR links to some American cities like Chicago, New York City, Boston), and very likely we would also have a line between Calgary and Edmonton. Sorry Vancouver (I love the place and spent 4 years living there), but it is just too far from other major Canadian urban centres, with extremely challenging topography separation...maybe HSR to Seattle/Portland, though).

Weekend trips to Montreal or Quebec city (from Toronto and beyond) suddenly become possible. Daytrips from Montreal to QC and Ottawa, and vice versa.

Flying from Toronto to Montreal is a royal pain in the ass, despite the short time in the air.

[MolsonExport]

for crissakes, Morocco has HSR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Boraq

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I personally think that we should have built HSR (at least the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto segment) back in the 1980s. It always made sense given the population share and density, and the extensive economic, political and social links between these cities (3 of the largest 6 in Canada, including the two biggest).

It is basically always worth trying to improve the publicly-owned right of ways connecting populated areas (widers/straighter/flatter routes). If it's done with foresight it's useful for many purposes and is not really that expensive. A rail line itself running through an area like Southern Ontario is relatively affordable and some poor countries have thousands of km of electrified rail.

I think we mainly have political problems limiting this type of development. The first is that we don't have efficient and politically viable mechanisms for buying out land owners (and we tax them at very low rates and encourage land speculation, so paying market rates is prohibitively expensive), and the second is that there is a norm of expanding highways with no tolls and so the right of ways end up congested with local traffic.

The HSR discussion is nice but you don't have to build to TGV standards to start with and just having reliable 100-200 km/h trains would be a big step up from what Canada has now. It should not come with double-digit billion dollar price tags. It would be very competitive with driving due to the higher speeds and better performance in bad weather.

[samne]

All for it, but I’ve seen this movie before. Timing is a little suspect too. I believe the winning bid was supposed to be announced last year.

[Innsertnamehere]

It was supposed to be announced last year before the federal government dropped into turmoil. I imagine they delayed it for a time with at least a bit of government stability.

[savevp]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canadians: Fuck those Ontarians and Quebecers for wanting to make traveling from Toronto to Montreal easier.

Come now, Canada is hardly the only G7 country to suffer from regionalism.

You think Scotland is happy when their taxes fund new tube lines in London? Or that East Germans don't complain constantly about the West getting more investment? Or Puerto Ricans who feel completely ignored by the rest of the US? Southern Italians who have seen their region wither away at the expense of the North?

There shouldn't be high-level Western opposition to this project, and so far I've not heard of any, but we don't need to beat up on ourselves as some disunited outlier nation. We're as unified as any of our peers, and at least we're finally making overtures about big projects again.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I've rode on the maglev in Shanghai. It is less than 30kms in total length, yet it got up to 431 km/h. Apparently now it maxes out at 300 km/hr, but when I took it (four times), each occasion it reached the 431 km/hr max.



This maglev was complete waste of money (vanity project)

Demonstration project.

I did love the fact that the train operators chair was basically a lawn chair.

[Metro-One]

I really really want this project to go forward, so I do support it 100%

But, as a British Columbian, it would be nice for the Feds to also announce a highway 1 twinning program in BC.

At the very least announce that they are moving forward with twinning the remaining 40km in Yoho Park ASAP (and then continuing afterwards in the remaining two national parks).

It would just be a wise political play and show commitment to cross Canada infrastructure investment.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I really really want this project to go forward, so I do support it 100%

But, as a British Columbian, it would be nice for the Feds to also announce a highway 1 twinning program in BC.

At the very least announce that they are moving forward with twinning the remaining 40km in Yoho Park ASAP (and then continuing afterwards in the remaining two national parks).

It would just be a wise political play and show commitment to cross Canada infrastructure investment.

For the sake of national unity, I'm supportive of the Feds handing out money for big infrastructure projects all across the country, and I'm even happy if the costs are relative to population. For example, let's say HSR is the Quebec + Ontario project costing $90 billion. Quebec and Ontario have 25 million people, or 5/8 of the country's population, so the total pot should be $144B, and BC with about 15% of the population is entitled to $22B.

But I think the infrastructure should be focused on boosting interprovincial trade and national security/unity. The HSR boosts Quebec <> Ontario trade and unity big time. Twinning Highway 1 fully through the Rockies probably does too, but does it do that to the same relative extent? Are there other infrastructure projects in BC, or pooled between BC and AB that could go further?

[craner]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I really really want this project to go forward, so I do support it 100%

But, as a British Columbian, it would be nice for the Feds to also announce a highway 1 twinning program in BC.

At the very least announce that they are moving forward with twinning the remaining 40km in Yoho Park ASAP (and then continuing afterwards in the remaining two national parks).

It would just be a wise political play and show commitment to cross Canada infrastructure investment.

Totally agree with you Metro-One.


Also, here is a G&M story on the HSR announcement today:

Trudeau selects consortium to co-develop high-speed-rail line between Quebec City and Toronto
http://https://apple.news/AGkHIH4ycTM2_Qq-IZShMpQ

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

But, as a British Columbian, it would be nice for the Feds to also announce a highway 1 twinning program in BC.

As a non Westerner, and going by what has been going on in the country lately, was there any kind of bone thrown to Alberta like "Hey, when this is done Calgary and Edmonton, you're next" Because after this announcement it seems to tacitly say that central Canada gets the good stuff and the West gets zilch which is a wrong message to send right now. Was anything said how the ROC could benefit from this project?

I have no dog in this, but that kind of came to mind.

[Metro-One]

To answer the questions above, since the interior of BC is also Alberta’s summer playground, a twinned trans Canada benefits them as well socially. Albertons complain about it just as much as British Columbians.

Economically / Nation building wise, outside of another pipeline to the coast, there is no other project better fitting for expanding cross nation trade involving BC then a twinned / modern standard highway one between coastal BC and the Prairies.

Also, with the HSR costing between 60 to 90 billion, a 2 to 3 billion dollar investment in highway one is very reasonable.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by elly63

As a non Westerner, and going by what has been going on in the country lately, was there any kind of bone thrown to Alberta like "Hey, when this is done Calgary and Edmonton, you're next" Because after this announcement it seems to tacitly say that central Canada gets the good stuff and the West gets zilch which is a wrong message to send right now. Was anything said how the ROC could benefit from this project?

I have no dog in this, but that kind of came to mind.

The Albertan Provincial government is already taking the lead on Calgary - Edmonton HSR - the Fed's should indicate interest in financially supporting that. Who knows, those conversations may already be happening anyway.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The Albertan Provincial government is already taking the lead on Calgary - Edmonton HSR - the Fed's should indicate interest in financially supporting that. Who knows, those conversations may already be happening anyway.

Yes, each of these investments ultimately benefit all Canadians. Focusing too much on regionalism is a problem we need to put an end to. We’re all seemingly gung ho about breaking down trade barriers and this is a similar topic. Less bickering and more unity as we face an uncertain future together.

Many voters likely have never experienced an HSR, but once this is hopefully built they will understand how fucking awesome they are for travel. We’re all likely sick and tired of how cramped and crappy the experience is flying.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Canada. The accidental G7 country that doesn't understand anything beyond being an American resource colony. Other countries: We need to tie our major economic centres together so that they we're more competitive overall. Canadians: Fuck those Ontarians and Quebecers for wanting to make traveling from Toronto to Montreal easier.

Australia doesn’t have high speed rail. Maybe it just isn’t the best solution for very large sparsely populated countries.

It does however make a showy photo op for political hacks who will be long gone once the inflated building and operating costs start piling up.

[MolsonExport]

Australia has much better national and regional rail. I've travelled on Australian rail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

For the sake of national unity, I'm supportive of the Feds handing out money for big infrastructure projects all across the country, and I'm even happy if the costs are relative to population. For example, let's say HSR is the Quebec + Ontario project costing $90 billion. Quebec and Ontario have 25 million people, or 5/8 of the country's population, so the total pot should be $144B, and BC with about 15% of the population is entitled to $22B.

But I think the infrastructure should be focused on boosting interprovincial trade and national security/unity. The HSR boosts Quebec <> Ontario trade and unity big time. Twinning Highway 1 fully through the Rockies probably does too, but does it do that to the same relative extent? Are there other infrastructure projects in BC, or pooled between BC and AB that could go further?

Agreed. We're talking about $90B as build cost over a decade of construction, that might start 4-5 years from now. Big number sticker shock aside, it's $9B/yr for a decade. That's 1.8% of revenue of the last federal budget. It's not the insanely unaffordable idea that some imagine it is. But at least for now, the Liberals are claiming this will be revenue neutral eventually, and that it's just financing that is needed. We'll see when the final design is presented in 4 years I guess.

Personally, I am okay with the feds getting out of transit and road funding completely except for projects with at least regional to national impact. HSR between Southern Ontario and Quebec, or even between Calgary and Edmonton would qualify. $100B Express 401 Tunnel would not. And let's be clear, the feds will always be spending a few billion per year for infrastructure. We should try and aim that at things that have national relevance and impact.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by elly63

As a non Westerner, and going by what has been going on in the country lately, was there any kind of bone thrown to Alberta like "Hey, when this is done Calgary and Edmonton, you're next" Because after this announcement it seems to tacitly say that central Canada gets the good stuff and the West gets zilch which is a wrong message to send right now. Was anything said how the ROC could benefit from this project?

I have no dog in this, but that kind of came to mind.

The Liberals bought and completed a $30B pipeline while pissing off some locals and indigenous in BC. But instead of thanks, all we ever hear are complaints and fantasies about how it would have automagically been built if the Liberals weren't in power.

Next, a chicken in every pot for each domain, as you suggest, is exactly why nothing ever gets built in this country anymore. Different regions have different needs. But we insist that every region has to get the same funding for everything. All that happens in the end is increased government spending to no real effect. Good on the feds for not doing that this time.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Australia doesn’t have high speed rail. Maybe it just isn’t the best solution for very large sparsely populated countries.

It does however make a showy photo op for political hacks who will be long gone once the inflated building and operating costs start piling up.

Canada's land mass is sparsely populated overall, but Canada's population isn't that sparsely distributed. And that's all that counts with projects like this. Worrying about the country's overall population density rather than sticking to the specific corridor makes about as much sense as saying that Canada is too sparely populated to justify any metro systems. The only thing that counts is the density present where the infrastructure would be built.

But yes, it wouldn't make sense to build HSR in Nunavut, or to build a metro system in Labrador.