High Speed Rail in Canada

[savevp]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Very disappointed to see Toronto-KW-London-Windsor left out.

If this project actually comes to pass - and who knows - an extension to London at least would be the logical next step. Ditto for a fast train to Niagara Falls.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by savevp

Press conference happening now. Just the latest in our great history of election-time HSR announcements that go nowhere because the announcing government are about to be turfed. But it's something.

Well the election is once again competitive so perhaps there will be some follow through if the Liberals win. A gas tax to pay for it once completed could be a good compromise. Also build a pipeline and pause climate measures for a term.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Windsor deserves to be a part of this…

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by savevp

If this project actually comes to pass - and who knows - an extension to London at least would be the logical next step. Ditto for a fast train to Niagara Falls.

The Feds have already alluded to improved service to SW Ontario. We all know it desperately needs it.


In addition to Toronto-Quebec City we need a Toronto-Niagara Falls and Toronto-Windsor route.

Ultimately Toronto-Montreal is the clear priority - let's get that done first, then focus on the rest.

[MonctonRad]

One big reason to go all in for major infrastructure construction (HSR, new freeways, pipelines) in the next decade is to make up for the upcoming decimation of the auto industry due to Trumpian tariffs.

[MolsonExport]

I won't be holding my breath on this. It has been announced, and reannounced, so many goddamned times in my life.

On the other hand, this is something that PPP can seize upon. His entire existence centres around him "not being Trudeau" and vapid sloganeering.

"Axe the Tracks!"
"Cut the Corridor!"
"Train in Vain!"

-Peevish Polyester (except the last one, which is The Clash).

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Very disappointed to see Toronto-KW-London-Windsor left out.

I am very happy to see TKLW left out. And even disappointed that Montreal-Trois Rivieres - Quebec City is being left in. People need to understand that scope creep kills projects. Not everything needs to be done in the first phase. It's the equivalent of saying a new subway line is disappointing because they only started with 10 stations instead of building the whole 50 station network in the first phase. If you actually want to see things built, you should be advocating for the smallest phases that are economically feasible.

For a project like this, it should have been:

1) Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal
2) Toronto-Kitchener-London
3) Montreal-Trois Rivieres-Quebec
4) London-Windsor-Detroit

Also, at least some of the blame here should go to the Wynne Liberals. VIA focused on Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal and later added Quebec City, because the Wynne Liberals kept insisting they were going to build an Ontario owned and operated HSR in Southwestern Ontario. If anything dooms this project, it's the fact that so many of those Wynne Liberals are part of Trudeau's policy cohort.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am very happy to see TKLW left out. And even disappointed that Montreal-Trois Rivieres - Quebec City is being left in. People need to understand that scope creep kills projects. Not everything needs to be done in the first phase. It's the equivalent of saying a new subway line is disappointing because they only started with 10 stations instead of building the whole 50 station network in the first phase. If you actually want to see things built, you should be advocating for the smallest phases that are economically feasible.

For a project like this, it should have been:

1) Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal
2) Toronto-Kitchener-London
3) Montreal-Trois Rivieres-Quebec
4) London-Windsor-Detroit

Also, at least some of the blame here should go to the Wynne Liberals. VIA focused on Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal and later added Quebec City, because the Wynne Liberals kept insisting they were going to build an Ontario owned and operated HSR in Southwestern Ontario. If anything dooms this project, it's the fact that so many of those Wynne Liberals are part of Trudeau's policy cohort.

The political problem is in Quebec Toronto and Ottawa connections are seen as very secondary to a connection to Quebec City. It would be like a suggestion to connect Kingston to Montreal.

How is all this only $3.9 Billion? Is the Ottawa to Quebec City portion going to be only minor upgrades? Even then. Ottawa to Toronto greenfield seems as likely to be 10X that the way we build things.

[Chocolite]

Originally Posted by Marshsparrow

Very disappointed to see Toronto-KW-London-Windsor left out.

I was surprised to see London left off, but I can see Kitchener Waterloo due to the Go train. One of the things I’ve noticed with high-speed rail in Europe is it takes a while for the train to get revved up to the high speeds and then to slow down again in Kitchener is almost too close for that. London, though would make sense given the distance, I think.
Maybe a later phase would include Kitchener and London?

[MolsonExport]

I've rode on the maglev in Shanghai. It is less than 30kms in total length, yet it got up to 431 km/h. Apparently now it maxes out at 300 km/hr, but when I took it (four times), each occasion it reached the 431 km/hr max.



This maglev was complete waste of money (vanity project)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Chocolite

I was surprised to see London left off, but I can see Kitchener Waterloo due to the Go train. One of the things I’ve noticed with high-speed rail in Europe is it takes a while for the train to get revved up to the high speeds and then to slow down again in Kitchener is almost too close for that. London, though would make sense given the distance, I think.
Maybe a later phase would include Kitchener in London?

1) It's bad enough that they had to extend it to Quebec City. That's why the sticker shock has moved up substantially. It would even worse if London was included in this phase.

2) Nothing can be done west of Union until Metrolinx sorts out the tracks for GO Expansion, electrification, and freight rail conflicts. When they are actually done all that in 2035, Phase 2 HSR planning can start.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This maglev was complete waste of money (vanity project)

This is kinda where we see the difference between China and the West. What you see as a waste of money, they see as a successful proof of concept that allowed them to develop the tech, practice construction needed for Maglev and see the pain points that come up during building and operating something like that. Entirely worthwhile on the knowledge and experience built.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The political problem is in Quebec Toronto and Ottawa connections are seen as very secondary to a connection to Quebec City. It would be like a suggestion to connect Kingston to Montreal.

I get why politics drove them to add QC. It's just unfortunate that they weren't able to resist that.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

How is all this only $3.9 Billion? Is the Ottawa to Quebec City portion going to be only minor upgrades? Even then. Ottawa to Toronto greenfield seems as likely to be 10X that the way we build things.

$3.9B is the cost of the design phase. Construction is $60-90B. Exact costs and economic return will be determined in the design phase.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

1) It's bad enough that they had to extend it to Quebec City. That's why the sticker shock has moved up substantially. It would even worse if London was included in this phase.

2) Nothing can be done west of Union until Metrolinx sorts out the tracks for GO Expansion, electrification, and freight rail conflicts. When they are actually done all that in 2035, Phase 2 HSR planning can start.

Political calculation may be at play. Quebecois may go “WTF”* if a huge chunk of this project is in Ontario. That may be why LPC proposes “to Quebec City” instead of “to Montreal”.

Edit: You beat me to it.
* Plus précisément, “Ouate de phoque”.

[WarrenC12]

This will only be using tax dollars from Ontario and Quebec right?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Political calculation may be at play. Quebecois may go “WTF” if a huge chunk of this project is in Ontario. That may be why LPC proposes “to Quebec City” instead of “to Montreal”.

Edit: You beat me to it.

Montreal-Quebec City is 100% politics. Urban Dreamer has alluded to this. And he was partly involved in the HFR project prior to it being parted out of VIA as a separate consortium with the CIB.

There's no way MTQ has higher ridership than TKL. But the Liberals need to win seats in Quebec.....

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

This will only be using tax dollars from Ontario and Quebec right?

After everything we've seen in the last month with Trump, this kind of comment is so disappointing. Is it really hard for you guys to understand that an infrastructure project can have a national impact even if it's regional?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get why politics drove them to add QC. It's just unfortunate that they weren't able to resist that.

$3.9B is the cost of the design phase. Construction is $60-90B. Exact costs and economic return will be determined in the design phase.

That makes way more sense. I should read more closely. That is probably realistic given how we build things. 300km/h is true HSR but hopefully there are express options to get those times down as 3 hours Montreal to Toronto isn't a true game changer. 1 hour Montreal to Q City or Ottawa would be and 2 from Toronto to Ottawa is right on the cusp. I think all three of those segments would be busies than the full Toronto to Montreal.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is kinda where we see the difference between China and the West. What you see as a waste of money, they see as a successful proof of concept that allowed them to develop the tech, practice construction needed for Maglev and see the pain points that come up during building and operating something like that. Entirely worthwhile on the knowledge and experience built.

It wasn’t a proof of concept. They never built another one and have stopped running it at high speeds. At best it was a failed pilot project.

And it is only 30 km. A conventional train would have made the trip in 10-15 minutes at a much higher frequency.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

After everything we've seen in the last month with Trump, this kind of comment is so disappointing. Is it really hard for you guys to understand that an infrastructure project can have a national impact even if it's regional?

I jest a little, but it's the story of our lives out here on the West Coast.