Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Oops...

https://x.com/PaulPlamondon/status/1877783723564757417

[lio45]

The Tories can win without Quebec, but last I checked the Federal Liberals can’t, so it’s a pretty self-destructive path to follow for them (if they’re dumb enough to follow it).

[New Brisavoine]

The things this Indian-Canadian guy is saying are shocking, but not surprising really. That's what you'd expect with Québec having a smaller and smaller share of the population. Just imagine when Québec will make up only 15% of the country's population, as will surely happen sooner or later...

[New Brisavoine]

The response of the former French ambassador in Washington DC to a ROCer.

[New Brisavoine]

Today's editorial in Le Devoir. That's more or less how I see it too.

L’effet Trump au Québec

Le Devoir
11 janvier 2025

La brutale entrée en scène de Donald Trump offre à François Legault une occasion inespérée de se remettre en selle.

[...]

Jusqu’à présent, il n’a pas eu beaucoup de succès en évoquant la tourmente dans laquelle un troisième référendum sur la souveraineté plongerait le Québec, mais la nouvelle menace venue de Washington pourrait apporter beaucoup d’eau à son moulin.

Rien ne rapproche autant qu’une commune inquiétude face au danger. Les Québécois se sentent menacés au même titre que les Canadiens, ce qui pourrait recréer, au moins temporairement, une solidarité pancanadienne qui avait pratiquement disparu. Plusieurs se demanderont si un État de 40 millions d’habitants ne résisterait pas mieux à ce matamore qu’un État qui en compte 9 millions.

https://www.ledevoir.com/opinion/chroniques/831817/effet-trump-quebec?

But then the editorial adds this, which is not going to please the pro-Canada in this thread:

Il y a d’excellentes raisons de vouloir quitter la fédération, mais le Québec ne sera pas plus avancé si l’économie s’effondre d’un océan à l’autre. Il sera toujours temps de reprendre le combat pour l’indépendance quand le feu sera éteint.

[New Brisavoine]

I see that one reader (commenting the editorial) suggests that if Québec is soooooo indispensable to Canada, then maybe it's time to renegotiate the constitution and turn Canada into a confederation of two equal confederated states: Anglo-Canada and Québec. That would be an interesting solution (Québec could implement whatever secular, language, or immigration laws it would wish without any interference from federal courts or government), but it's doubtful the Anglophone provinces would accept such a major change.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I see that one reader (commenting the editorial) suggests that if Québec is soooooo indispensable to Canada, then maybe it's time to renegotiate the constitution and turn Canada into a confederation of two equal confederated states: Anglo-Canada and Québec. That would be an interesting solution (Québec could implement whatever secular, language, or immigration laws it would wish without any interference from federal courts or government), but it's doubtful the Anglophone provinces would accept such a major change.

I bet that reader says "Canada and Quebec" and "ROC" as well.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I bet that reader says "Canada and Quebec" and "ROC" as well.

He doesn't name them. He just says there should be "2 entités égales dans une confédération". The two entities are Anglo-Canada and Québec.

There's also this comment in reaction to the editorial. It's by a woman called Stéphanie LeBlanc (so of Acadian origin with the capital B in the middle? ). I'm translating:

I am pro-independence, but while I am worried about the idea of ​​a referendum taking place as early as between 2026 and 2030 [because of Trump], I think that the independence movement cannot allow itself to be paralyzed forever by the presence in the White House of a president who is in his last term and will be 80 years old when the next Quebec general election takes place.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They have forgotten Saint Pierre and Miquelon. The only place in North America Donald Trump doesn't want to annex, because we've got nukes.

Unlike Greenland, there is close to zero strategic value in Saint Pierre & Miquelon.

The EU freakout over Greenland is incredible to watch. Greenland is a colony. The Greenlanders are indigenous North American people who have the right to self determination over their homeland which is recognized by Denmark itself since 2009. Greenland doesn't "belong" to Europe. If America makes them a better offer, they'll leave and that's entirely up to them.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I see that one reader (commenting the editorial) suggests that if Québec is soooooo indispensable to Canada, then maybe it's time to renegotiate the constitution and turn Canada into a confederation of two equal confederated states: Anglo-Canada and Québec. That would be an interesting solution (Québec could implement whatever secular, language, or immigration laws it would wish without any interference from federal courts or government), but it's doubtful the Anglophone provinces would accept such a major change.

The Western provinces would rather eat glass than do this, but not necessarily because of any opposition to Quebec, per se. The idea that Canada is divided into "Quebec" and "everybody else, that Ontario gets to be the leader of" is anathema to Albertans.

The much more realistic approach is "cafeteria federalism", where every province has the same legal autonomy, but not all provinces choose to exercise it. So for example, every province can choose to have its own immigration policy if it wants to, but they could also choose to just opt in to a federal policy if they want to. Westerners will be totally fine with Quebec having more autonomy on pretty much any topic as long as they have the ability to receive that same autonomy too.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Unlike Greenland, there is close to zero strategic value in Saint Pierre & Miquelon.

The EU freakout over Greenland is incredible to watch. Greenland is a colony. The Greenlanders are indigenous North American people who have the right to self determination over their homeland which is recognized by Denmark itself since 2009. Greenland doesn't "belong" to Europe. If America makes them a better offer, they'll leave and that's entirely up to them.

Well the Danish were actually there before the so-called Indigenous people though the population is overwhelmingly Inuit now. They have no desire for independence and losing their current subsidy. They'd be wise not to trust anything Trump says though maybe they will take some upfront cash payment to join the US.

But all that aside the freakout is Trump acting like he can dictate based on threats. In some ways this isn't new from American Hegemony but doing it with allies absolutely is and the disintegration of the world order in Ukraine with threats elsewhere suggests this is dangerous.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Western provinces would rather eat glass than do this, but not necessarily because of any opposition to Quebec, per se. The idea that Canada is divided into "Quebec" and "everybody else, that Ontario gets to be the leader of" is anathema to Albertans.

The much more realistic approach is "cafeteria federalism", where every province has the same legal autonomy, but not all provinces choose to exercise it. So for example, every province can choose to have its own immigration policy if it wants to, but they could also choose to just opt in to a federal policy if they want to. Westerners will be totally fine with Quebec having more autonomy on pretty much any topic as long as they have the ability to receive that same autonomy too.

Once upon a time, we called this… “Meech”.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There is also that thing with a lot of those guys that they go from Montreal to either New York or Los Angeles. The now-disgraced Dov Charney is in that group, too. Montreal operates like a city-state in those circles.

A lot of them are Jewish.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Loco101

A lot of them are Jewish.

Yes, in my experience the border is less of a factor in many Jewish circles. Lot of US college, lot of back and forth. One woman just came back to Halifax after 20 years in New York, another guy is convincing his Toronto-based gf to move down with him in Venice Beach.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Unlike Greenland, there is close to zero strategic value in Saint Pierre & Miquelon.

Perhaps you don't see any strategic value to SPM, but the CIA certainly does: https://www.challenges.fr/economie/espionnage-comment-la-france-joue-les-big-brother_9482

They tried to grab Saint Pierre and Miquelon during the war already. It was only thanks to de Gaulle's bold intervention that France kept it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

They have no desire for independence and losing their current subsidy. They'd be wise not to trust anything Trump says though maybe they will take some upfront cash payment to join the US.

Actually the Greenlanders want independence. There was supposed to be an independence referendum either this year or next. Their current PM (who is like the PQ leader in Québec) has said this week that they want independence from both Denmark AND the US.

[New Brisavoine]

Jean Quatremer is a left-wing journalist, writing for the most left-wing national newspaper in France, Libération.

https://x.com/quatremer/status/1878419523230917092

[mousquet]

That term of "woke" ("wokisme" here in France) is ambiguous.
Some only hear it as anti-racist or anti-homophobic policies, which is right, quite honestly.
Some others fear it as dictatorship of minorities and an extremely individualistic ideology that would cause decadence to the Western world.

In fact, all those people should agree on what's essential, because their concerns are pretty much the same, basically.
Only wrong passions keep them apart politically. And the left wing has been cynical in that matter. They make use of minorities for their political interests, that's been bad.

My hair is light brown.
My eyes are blue.
I'm 5.7 short (1.73 m).
I advocate biking in Paris.
I like pasta.
I can't stand it when people make some noise with their lips when they drink something hot like coffee.
I don't have a favorite color.

I might be a minority in every of those aspects and I'm not going to annoy anybody with it.
People just need to get over themselves at some point.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Actually the Greenlanders want independence. There was supposed to be an independence referendum either this year or next. Their current PM (who is like the PQ leader in Québec) has said this week that they want independence from both Denmark AND the US.

Realistically, the best way for Greenland to achieve independence is by becoming a Compact of Free Association (CFA) partner to the USA. That's the status that the US gives to strategically important Pacific islands that want independence but can't afford to support themselves. Currently the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau have this status.

With CFA status a country remains independent and sovereign and has UN membership, but commits to aligning with the USA on foreign policy, and allowing the US military to use their territory as if it was part of the US. In exchange, the CFA state gets financial subsidies from the US, its citizens have the right to freely live and work in the US, and its companies can export goods to the US as if they were domestic American companies.

Greenland is basically a perfect fit for an American CFA country - small population, economically unable to support itself, and strategic value to the USA.

Behind Trump's bluster, many Republicans are proposing that the US basically pursue this exact outcome. And it's getting support from a lot of Greenland separatists as a formula for realistic independence.

I actually this may very well happen. By 2028 we'll have the Republic of Greenland as America's fourth CFA country.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Realistically, the best way for Greenland to achieve independence is by becoming a Compact of Free Association (CFA) partner to the USA. That's the status that the US gives to strategically important Pacific islands that want independence but can't afford to support themselves. Currently the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, and Palau have this status.

With CFA status a country remains independent and sovereign and has UN membership, but commits to aligning with the USA on foreign policy, and allowing the US military to use their territory as if it was part of the US. In exchange, the CFA state gets financial subsidies from the US, its citizens have the right to freely live and work in the US, and its companies can export goods to the US as if they were domestic American companies.

Greenland is basically a perfect fit for an American CFA country - small population, economically unable to support itself, and strategic value to the USA.

Behind Trump's bluster, many Republicans are proposing that the US basically pursue this exact outcome. And it's getting support from a lot of Greenland separatists as a formula for realistic independence.

I actually this may very well happen. By 2028 we'll have the Republic of Greenland as America's fourth CFA country.

Perhaps Canada needs to think about a similar arrangement, adding Nunavut into the mix.