Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

I am constantly mistaken for American in Europe and the US, which I suspect is a result of the disappearance of what was always fairly weak Canadian raising due to one British parent (I apparently had some sort of quasi-English accent for the first few months of kindergarten until it melted away, which isn't so surprising as almost of all of our family friends were English back then -- I guess Dad was still adjusting) and then living in Montreal for my adult life.

Anglo-Montrealers often don't have much if any raising, at least those of Mediterranean or Jewish origin (which is a lot of them).

My mom has pretty strong Canadian raising due to being raised in Nova Scotia. But maybe there is actually a demeanour or personality aspect, too -- I don't know. I don't feel that people are different from me in either Southern California or Toronto, where I visit often; they scan as "home". Nova Scotians have a little more of a regional identity that is distinct (I go there a lot too), but it's pretty flattened in the Halifax area.

Now that I have been over here for so long, and often dealing with non-native English speakers, I have lost some more Canadian particularities, as the US version is usually better understood ("restroom" vs. "washroom", for example, or "soda" vs. "pop"*). But there are some Britishisms that are also hard to avoid here in that context, like "lift" for "elevator" (easier for everyone).

Having people assume you are American in pretty much every setting kind of wakes you up to some of the casual anti-Americanisms that are pretty common among Canadians and Europeans, and I do find they get my back up a bit, even if I am not really onside. I am quicker to defend them than I was at home, although it has its limits.

(* Anglo-Montrealers often and bizarrely say "soft drink")

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I am constantly mistaken for American in Europe and the US, which I suspect is a result of the disappearance of what was always fairly weak Canadian raising due to one British parent (I apparently had some sort of quasi-English accent for the first few months of kindergarten until it melted away, which isn't so surprising as almost of all of our family friends were English back then -- I guess Dad was still adjusting) and then living in Montreal for my adult life.

Anglo-Montrealers often don't have much if any raising, at least those of Mediterranean or Jewish origin (which is a lot of them).

My mom has pretty strong Canadian raising due to being raised in Nova Scotia. But maybe there is actually a demeanour or personality aspect, too -- I don't know. I don't feel that people are different from me in either Southern California or Toronto, where I visit often; they scan as "home". Nova Scotians have a little more of a regional identity that is distinct (I go there a lot too), but it's pretty flattened in the Halifax area.

Now that I have been over here for so long, and often dealing with non-native English speakers, I have lost some more Canadian particularities, as the US version is usually better understood ("restroom" vs. "washroom", for example, or "soda" vs. "pop"*). But there are some Britishisms that are also hard to avoid here in that context, like "lift" for "elevator" (easier for everyone).

Having people assume you are American in pretty much every setting kind of wakes you up to some of the casual anti-Americanisms that are pretty common among Canadians and Europeans, and I do find they get my back up a bit, even if I am not really onside. I am quicker to defend them than I was at home, although it has its limits.

(* Anglo-Montrealers often and bizarrely say "soft drink")

I was going to say yesterday that Anglo-Montrealers of Jewish (Ashkenazi) and Italian descent, who make up a huge chunk of that community these days, have distinctive nasal inflections in their English that subtly reminds one of their (often literal) cousins in the NE US. I am not saying they sound exactly the same, but they generally have more of that than the stereotypical or even caricutural Anglo-Canadian accent traits.

Whereas even in Toronto, at least among white people and very assimilated ethnic minorities, you will find the odd hoser speech traits if you're paying attention.

[Acajack]

I assume at least a couple of people will get what is referenced in this political cartoon.

https://x.com/haldol/status/1877694560169586917/photo/1

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Will you spell Montréal and Québec with an accent if the Montréalais and Québécois want it to be spelled that way?

Sure. It is a pain on standard keyboard (especially with a mac) that hasn't been configured.

Since we are on the subject, do you anticipate that France will revert to Straßburg, Duunkerke, Rysel and Dowaai, for Strasbourg, Dunkerque, Lille, and Douai, respectively?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But there are some Britishisms that are also hard to avoid here in that context, like "lift" for "elevator" (easier for everyone).

Bill or banknote?

I always say elevator by the way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sure. It is a pain on standard keyboard (especially with a mac) that hasn't been configured.

Since we are on the subject, do you anticipate that France will revert to Straßburg, Duunkerke, Rysel and Dowaai, for Strasbourg, Dunkerque, Lille, and Douai, respectively?

It's still a mystery to me how they got Mulhouse (pronounced "muul-ooze") out of Mülhausen!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I assume at least a couple of people will get what is referenced in this political cartoon.

https://x.com/haldol/status/1877694560169586917/photo/1

They have forgotten Saint Pierre and Miquelon. The only place in North America Donald Trump doesn't want to annex, because we've got nukes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Bill or banknote?

I always say elevator by the way.

In Canada the Bank of Canada uses "banknote" or "note" in all their products and communications. (And so do I.) This is the official terminology for the currency.

In practice, probably 99% of Canadians say "bill" in everyday life.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Since we are on the subject, do you anticipate that France will revert to Straßburg, Duunkerke, Rysel and Dowaai, for Strasbourg, Dunkerque, Lille, and Douai, respectively?

Nice try, but misinformed. Lille and Douai were never Dutch speaking places. As for Strasbourg, its native name is Strossburi, not Straßburg. And Dunkerque is its West Flemish name (West Flemish is not the same as Dutch).

You'd be more right with Perpignan, but the city is now 99% French speaking. C'est la vie.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They have forgotten Saint Pierre and Miquelon. The only place in North America Donald Trump doesn't want to annex, because we've got nukes.

There is a spot for them in our village gaulois if they want it.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Bill or banknote?

I always say elevator by the way.

I don't remember the last time I talked about these, but I could see saying banknote if talking to a Swedish person. It would avoid any possible mixup with bills as in utility bills, the bill at the restaurant etc.

It would be a choice though. It's a five-dollar bill under every possible definition of my native dialect.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's still a mystery to me how they got Mulhouse (pronounced "muul-ooze") out of Mülhausen!

Again, Mülhausen is the German name of the city, not its native name (standard German is as different from Alsatian as it is from Dutch). The native name of Mulhouse is "Milhüsa".

As for the French ending "-house", its a very ancient adaptation of the Germanic ending "-hausen/-hüsa" by the Romance speakers of Eastern France long before France conquered the area. Various other Germanic endings were adapted to Romance phonology. For example "-ingen" became "-ange", hence the many villages in Lorraine which end in "-ange" (-ingen means "belonging to"). And the most famous Germanic ending of all, -burg/-buri/-borough (meaning "fortress"), which was adapted by the Romance speakers as -bourg(northern France)/-borg(southern France)/-borgo(Italy).

For example here the place names with Germanic ending "-ingen", showing where they were Romanized as "-ange", a process that took place in the Middle Ages.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I don't remember the last time I talked about these, but I could see saying banknote if talking to a Swedish person. It would avoid any possible mixup with bills as in utility bills, the bill at the restaurant etc.

It would be a choice though. It's a five-dollar bill under every possible definition of my native dialect.

Trousers or pants?

[Acajack]

I don't think I've ever heard a Canadian say "trousers". Though obviously most everyone knows the word and what it means.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I don't remember the last time I talked about these, but I could see saying banknote if talking to a Swedish person. It would avoid any possible mixup with bills as in utility bills, the bill at the restaurant etc.

It would be a choice though. It's a five-dollar bill under every possible definition of my native dialect.

Depends on context. The five-dollar bill is a Canadian banknote seems perfectly fine to me.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think I've ever heard a Canadian say "trousers". Though obviously most everyone knows the word and what it means.

I could use trousers or pants interchangeably, although when I think "trousers", the image I conjure is of dress pants (!).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Depends on context. The five-dollar bill is a Canadian banknote seems perfectly fine to me.

I usually use banknote to avoid confusion. In the US I often said "bill (pause) banknote" so there was no confusion.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Depends on context. The five-dollar bill is a Canadian banknote seems perfectly fine to me.

Written out it's perfectly understandable, but I'm not sure I've ever heard someone refer to a five-dollar bill as a "banknote" in casual conversation in Canada (or the US).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I could use trousers or pants interchangeably, although when I think "trousers", the image I conjure is of dress pants (!).

And how do you call that?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Written out it's perfectly understandable, but I'm not sure I've ever heard someone refer to a five-dollar bill as a "banknote" in casual conversation in Canada (or the US).

Maybe "note", though. I've definitely heard that. And actually say it myself.