Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

East of Highway 41, that's around Bon Echo provincial park? Probably one of the nicest areas in Ontario for sure, too bad it's a 4-5+ hour drive in the summer from the GTA.

That's what I loved most about BC, exploring the abandoned logging roads there in the backcountry that would take you to these fantasy level secret escapes and panoramas, and at the same time it's less than an hour or so from Vancouver.

Yep. Bon Echo Park and everything east of there up to about Highway 511. The absolute peak is NFPL (North Frontenac Parklands) which is truly the secret hidden gem of Southern Ontario even though maybe 2% of the population has heard of it. Even the NFPL website barely describes what it offers!

This is why Eastern Ontario is a nicer place to live than the GTA . Ottawa is way closer to way nicer naturescapes than Toronto is.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It's certainly something that lags overall immigration levels. Going to a provincial park is like going back in time 40 years or going to a small town. It's very white. South Asians (by appearance) do seem to be the one group you see. Hard to say how long they are in Canada but second generation Indians are very assimilated. Hockey fans etc.

It is really striking how when you go into these places I'm talking about - NFPL, Bon Echo, etc. - the people you'll see around are probably 90% white and maybe 10% South Asian and nobody else is ever to be seen. I dunno what's up with that. Too far from the GTA, I guess. But Ottawa's not exactly lacking in racial diversity and it's not far away.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Wikipedia says the English pronunciation is not like French "lièvre". The i is pronounced like English "ee", whereas in French the i in lièvre (hare) is not a vowel, but the semi-vowel spelled "y" in English (as in yacht). Moreover, English speakers apparently do not pronounce the final "-re".

So my question stands. How is it pronounced in Québec by French media? Do they pronounce "paw - lee - ev" like the Anglophones, or "poids - lièvre" as it should be in French?

"pwaw" for this Anglophone. I also pronounce the final "re". I'm going to have to listen to how he himself says it.

[kwoldtimer]

Found this - he says it can be Poly -ev in English. That would never have occurred to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_JBDM6IC20

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It is really striking how when you go into these places I'm talking about - NFPL, Bon Echo, etc. - the people you'll see around are probably 90% white and maybe 10% South Asian and nobody else is ever to be seen. I dunno what's up with that. Too far from the GTA, I guess. But Ottawa's not exactly lacking in racial diversity and it's not far away.

Yes I spend a lot of time in Provincial Parks and notice the same though I'd say 95 4 and 1. I haven't spent as much time in Quebec Parks but imagine it's the same or even more so.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps “upset” is not the right term but Trudeau’s French is definitely used as political and cultural fodder against him. There is a weekly political satire show on Radio-Canada where an imitator plays Trudeau and makes very obvious mistakes in French.

As I mentioned this is bound to happen to you if you are going to finger-point Quebec about Bill 21 being racist or being mean to little old anglos, making it part of your political bread and butter.

Which is something that the Maritime-born and raised Acajack does not do, even if I am not a public figure.

Plus my French and my accent are better than his.

Well in that case I nominate you for leader of the Liberal Party of Canada!

[New Brisavoine]

Has the PQ reacted to Trump's latest provocation? It could play both against and in favor of Québec's secession I think. Je me demande comment ils vont le tourner...

PS: Here in Europe I see shell shocked after shell shocked reactions following his threat of military action against Denmark. Personally it makes me laugh, but the French are uniquely relaxed in this because a- we have our own nuclear deterrent, and b- we've never entirely trusted the US, so it's a bit of a case of 'told you so!'.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Has the PQ reacted to Trump's latest provocation? It could play both against and in favor of Québec's secession I think. Je me demande comment ils vont le tourner...

PS: Here in Europe I see shell shocked after shell shocked reactions following his threat of military action against Denmark. Personally it makes me laugh, but the French are uniquely relaxed in this because a- we have our own nuclear deterrent, and b- we've never entirely trusted the US, so it's a bit of a case of 'told you so!'.

I haven't heard much from the PQ as of yet but I think the party will take a wait and see approach. What's interesting is that Trump is threatening to isolate Canada economically with punishing tariffs and the PQ today goes on and on about how Quebec being its own country would be so much better off even though most Quebecers today don't want it. If Quebec became a sovereign country then Canada could do the exact same thing and impose tariffs, put up barriers to trade, etc.. Obviously it wouldn't happen with Quebec as part of the Canadian federation. The last thing anybody needs are more barriers. But I've mentioned many times that the PQ isn't proposing sovereignty with hard borders as that would be economically bad.

Someone posted on here about Quebec's GDP being as high as Ontario's per capita. We have also seen stats where Quebec has had the best performing economy over the last 10-15 years. That would NOT be the case under a PQ majority government.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Has the PQ reacted to Trump's latest provocation? It could play both against and in favor of Québec's secession I think. Je me demande comment ils vont le tourner...

PS: Here in Europe I see shell shocked after shell shocked reactions following his threat of military action against Denmark. Personally it makes me laugh, but the French are uniquely relaxed in this because a- we have our own nuclear deterrent, and b- we've never entirely trusted the US, so it's a bit of a case of 'told you so!'.

Is there really a serious Québec secessionist movement anymore?

I've been to Montreal five times since the mid 2000's, and each time I've noticed two things: 1) more and more non-white French speaking immigrants and 2) feeling less and less welcome in Montreal as an Anglophone-Canadian.

I don't think many French speaking newcomers especially care about how these pro-French, anti-English policies are negatively impacting the lives of Anglophones in Montreal, as I think people are generally self preserving. It's not exactly hard to see how these pro-French, anti-English language polices could benefit French speaking newcomers and their careers in Quebec.

However, I think it's also abundantly clear that the vast majority of French speaking newcomers would not vote in favour of Quebec's secession from Canada. I think most immigrants want to keep the door open to moving elsewhere in Canada one day, regardless of what the PQ may promise in terms of keeping full freedom of mobility with the rest of Canada post indépendance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I haven't heard much from the PQ as of yet but I think the party will take a wait and see approach. .

This is what I am seeing as well. The PQ is very quiet on this issue.

I think part of the wait-and-see is related to whether Trump destabilizing Canada (however this turns out) might open up a window of opportunity for independence.

I also note that the 51st state issue is far less top-of-mind and heated in Quebec. I think that for many Quebecers being subject to a larger entity that can impose its will on you is something that they're used to. Not saying it wouldn't be a lot worse if we were part of the US, but this situation does shape one's mindset a lot. And BTW this applies to many Quebec federalists as well, even subtly and unknowingly to them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is there really a serious Québec secessionist movement anymore?

Well, the PQ which is unabashedly secessionist ("referendum as soon as we get elected") and is in first place in the polls and would win a majority government. This PQ is even different from the PQ of the past 20 years or so, as after 1995 when they lost, they put independence on the backburner and said "we'll try and win elections, and then we'll see if we hold a referendum or not".

Also Québec solidaire which is at 15% in the polls is also officially or nominally for independence.

The governing CAQ also has a fair number of people who if the question were asked, would be for independence.

All in all probably 40% of Quebecers are for independence right now.

So I wouldn't say that Quebec doesn't have a bona fide independence movement right now. It definitely does and it's on the upswing (modestly).

EDIT: The Bloc Québécois is the number one federal party in Quebec in the polls right now and is on pace to win two thirds to three quarters of the seats in the province.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Is there really a serious Québec secessionist movement anymore?

I've been to Montreal five times since the mid 2000's, and each time I've noticed two things: 1) more and more non-white French speaking immigrants and 2) feeling less and less welcome in Montreal as an Anglophone-Canadian.

I don't think many French speaking newcomers especially care about how these pro-French, anti-English policies are negatively impacting the lives of Anglophones in Montreal, as I think people are generally self preserving. It's not exactly hard to see how these pro-French, anti-English language polices could benefit French speaking newcomers and their careers in Quebec.

However, I think it's also abundantly clear that the vast majority of French speaking newcomers would not vote in favour of Quebec's secession from Canada. I think most immigrants want to keep the door open to moving elsewhere in Canada one day, regardless of what the PQ may promise in terms of keeping full freedom of mobility with the rest of Canada post indépendance.

They could certainly make an argument to immigrants and even Anglophones. You could make geopolitical argument to Syrian refugees for example though I bet they are reluctant to start any sectarian strife. I bet you could also get some of the progressive Anglophone vote as well. The strategy of ginning up the Francophone vote and insulting the money and ethnics doesn't seem like it works in 2025+.

A slash and burn Conservative government could certainly help with the winning conditions.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

They could certainly make an argument to immigrants and even Anglophones. You could make geopolitical argument to Syrian refugees for example though I bet they are reluctant to start any sectarian strife. I bet you could also get some of the progressive Anglophone vote as well. The strategy of ginning up the Francophone vote and insulting the money and ethnics doesn't seem like it works in 2025+.

A slash and burn Conservative government could certainly help with the winning conditions.

PQ has already turned its attention to PP, in anticipation.

[MolsonExport]

Maritime-born and raised Acajack does not do

I know that you are Acadien (or partly so) but weren't you raised in Ontario?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, the PQ which is unabashedly secessionist ("referendum as soon as we get elected") and is in first place in the polls and would win a majority government. This PQ is even different from the PQ of the past 20 years or so, as after 1995 when they lost, they put independence on the backburner and said "we'll try and win elections, and then we'll see if we hold a referendum or not".

Also Québec solidaire which is at 15% in the polls is also officially or nominally for independence.

The governing CAQ also has a fair number of people who if the question were asked, would be for independence.

All in all probably 40% of Quebecers are for independence right now.

So I wouldn't say that Quebec doesn't have a bona fide independence movement right now. It definitely does and it's on the upswing (modestly).

EDIT: The Bloc Québécois is the number one federal party in Quebec in the polls right now and is on pace to win two thirds to three quarters of the seats in the province.

It also feels like being for it now is different than when there is a binary choice so as soon as any actual vote is scheduled you get to 55-45 pretty fast and then you are working on the final 5%.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I know that you are Acadien (or partly so) but weren't you raised in Ontario?

Partly raised in the Maritimes, partly raised in Ontario.

We flipped back and forth between the two regions a few times.

I am very predominantly Acadien in origin, though not 100%. There are some interesting exotic quirks in my family tree, and that are fairly recent (mid-20th century).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

It also feels like being for it now is different than when there is a binary choice so as soon as any actual vote is scheduled you get to 55-45 pretty fast and then you are working on the final 5%.

That may be the case. It is often said that support for sovereignty right now is about the same as it was in late 1994 and early 1995 when things started getting serious about another referendum. And the Oui side ended up almost 10 points higher at 49.4% in October 1995.

I am not sure I see where the path is for the PQ to move the needle from where things are now to over 50% in 4-5 years, but one thing I do know is that almost anything can happen in politics.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

I've been to Montreal five times since the mid 2000's, and each time I've noticed two things: 1) more and more non-white French speaking immigrants and 2) feeling less and less welcome in Montreal as an Anglophone-Canadian.

The first is almost certainly true but can't say I've felt the same for the latter. The areas I've spent time in Montreal recently are definitely more francophone than when I hung out in the McGill Ghetto in the early 2000s, but I've never felt unwelcome. If anything I've found that Montrealers I've chatted to in the bars I went to were more interested in what's going on in Toronto than 20 years ago. At least in terms of food/music/bar scene.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

What's interesting is that Trump is threatening to isolate Canada economically with punishing tariffs and the PQ today goes on and on about how Quebec being its own country would be so much better off even though most Quebecers today don't want it. If Quebec became a sovereign country then Canada could do the exact same thing and impose tariffs, put up barriers to trade, etc.. Obviously it wouldn't happen with Quebec as part of the Canadian federation. The last thing anybody needs are more barriers. But I've mentioned many times that the PQ isn't proposing sovereignty with hard borders as that would be economically bad.

True but only to a tenuous point.

The rapport de force is a lot different with US-Canada being a 9-to-1 ratio whereas ROC-Quebec is a roughly 3-to-1 ratio.

And this isn't counting the fact that Quebec geographically lies between two key parts of the ROC, whereas that's not the case for the US vs Canada. (Alaska isn't really a factor when you count matters of scale.)

Not to mention Ontario being 50% of the ROC and relying heavily on trade with Quebec for its economy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes I spend a lot of time in Provincial Parks and notice the same though I'd say 95 4 and 1. I haven't spent as much time in Quebec Parks but imagine it's the same or even more so.

I've spent time in Quebec SÉPAQ parks and the clientele there is very very very white.