Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^That actually kind of looks like Ontario.

From what I recall, it looks like the Niagara Escarpment. Geographically it's not particular noteworthy, and IMO isn't as nice as the wilderness around Ottawa or Montreal. But it's a nice green escape from the hustle and bustle of Paris.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^That actually kind of looks like Ontario.

Yeah, but much closer to the city center, and also not as cold in winter (and so with a much longer outdoorsy season). The only drawback is you'll have more people around than in the wildernesses of Ontario (although not that many by European standards and considering it's so close to a megacity of 13 million people, but that's because the forest is so large you can still isolate yourself in it).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

There's a thread on Quebec's secession?

Sorry, we're not supposed to pronounce the S word.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Oh yes they do, at least some of them (my friends do). But inside Seattle, in the city, it's incredible how not outdoorsy it is (as opposed to Vancouver). I spent an entire summer in Seattle and there wasn't even a park to go to, nobody doing stuff outside. Except Green Lake a little bit (but it's not very large). I knew one old lady, nearly 90 y/o, West Coast hippie style, who swam everyday in Green Lake (everybody told her she was crazy to do it, because of pollution). She wasn't from Seattle though (originally from Santa Barbara). Beverly was her name. But she was quite the one odd out. The rest of people in Seattle are not like that at all. Whereas the one day I spent in Vancouver I saw quite a few people doing outdoor activities right in the center of the city (Stanley Park if I remember correctly?).

Vancouver's quite unique in that regard, and it's thanks to the foresight of keeping Stanley Park undeveloped while the city grew. The Vancouver seawall was also a visionary investment in the public realm. Seattle's more like the typical sprawling American metropolis and suffers from lousier urban planning. Hence why Vancouverites can indulge in outdoor activities around in the heart of the city centre.

You've touched on something that exposes a deep cultural chasm between Anglo-Canada and Toronto. Anglo-Canada actually loves to invest in public realm that enhances access to nature and outdoor activities, but Toronto politicans and the public at large are generally allergic to that.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

From what I recall, it looks like the Niagara Escarpment. Geographically it's not particular noteworthy, and IMO isn't as nice as the wilderness around Ottawa or Montreal. But it's a nice green escape from the hustle and bustle of Paris.

This is Europe, not North America. Nowhere is it going to be as grand and wild as in North America. But then you get to experience tons of history and different cultures within 2 hours of flight. Can't have everything.

Also, I don't know what "from what I recall" means exactly. The forest of Fontainebleau is so large it would take a lifetime to explore, and I don't know what you've seen and haven't seen. The areas closest to the château are the least impressive. I know both Europe and North America, and EVEN by North American standards the forest of Fontainebleau could hold its own (although obviously it's never going to be as grand and huge as the Rocky Mountains or the northern wildernesses of Québec).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

A lot of immigrants are also disappointed by the flat and unimpressive topography of Southern Ontario in general, and it's common to hear that they can find much better hiking back in the old country. Hence the disinterest to discover Ontario, since it's not particularly appealing.

This isn't a fair criticism. This only really applies to the GTA, the Southwest, and the corridor along the 401. The cottage country region has plenty of beautiful topography and natural scenery. Algonquin Park is absolutely stunning. And it's definitely within Southern Ontario.

This is the hill I described in my last post.

And this is definitely in Southern Ontario. In fact, it's actually further south than Ottawa is.

Although I will concede that by "Southern Ontario", you were probably mentally excluding Eastern Ontario, which is pretty much where all the actual wilderness of Southern Ontario is located.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, according to Google Maps the closest areas in that wilderness band are 2 hours by car from Toronto. That's far! 2 hours by car from Paris you're on the beach (at Deauville, the very chic beach resort and casino town frequented by Parisians and jet setters).

In the Paris metro area you have areas of nature and outdoor activities MUCH closer than that. In just 15 minutes of Métro you have two of the largest urban woods in the world. And in half an hour you have some very large forests and lakes, parks.

Remember that in Canada, 2 hours by car is considered close.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Remember that in Canada, 2 hours by car is considered close.

It may well be, but 2 hours is still 2 hours, and Canadian days only have 24 hours like in the rest of the world.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This isn't a fair criticism. This only really applies to the GTA, the Southwest, and the corridor along the 401. The cottage country region has plenty of beautiful topography and natural scenery. Algonquin Park is absolutely stunning. And it's definitely within Southern Ontario.

Although I will concede that by "Southern Ontario", you were probably mentally excluding Eastern Ontario, which is pretty much where all the actual wilderness of Southern Ontario is located.

Yes, I was referring to immigrants located in the GTA. Traffic is so bad these days, it could take a two hour drive on the weekend to get from Hamilton to Whitby (if say I wanted to hit the new spa Nordic) if you don't take the 407, so a drive to Niagara Falls could take up to 3 hours, and Algonquin could mean a 5-6 hour drive during the summer. An accident makes it all the more horrific, I remember once it took me 8 hours just to get back to Toronto after a car flipped on Hwy 60.

Even drives out to Sandbanks or Kawartha Highlands is now an easy 2-4 hour drive. Bruce Peninsula can drag out to a 5-6 hour drive as well.

If Toronto has TGV/Shinkansen to Montreal or Quebec it would be a game-changer. Imagine zipping 2-3 hours out to Quebec, and then pick up a rental car or car share to visit a SEPAQ parc. I think suddenly people in the GTA will feel much more connected to nature.

Cottage Country is pretty scenery wise for Ontario standards, but after spending a lot more time with SO's family in Quebec, coming back home it feels pedestrian and a bit uninspiring. I've pretty much lost interest exploring the wilderness in Southern Ontario and spend much more time in Quebec these days, where the better topography makes it more fun for outdoor sports like mountain biking, rock climbing, via ferrata and ATV. Whitewater rafting on the Ottawa river is probably the best Southern Ontario activity that I would recommend to friends.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It may well be, but 2 hours is still 2 hours, and Canadian days only have 24 hours like in the rest of the world.

We just eat faster to compensate.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Cottage Country is pretty scenery wise for Ontario standards, but after spending a lot more time with SO's family in Quebec, coming back home it feels pedestrian and a bit uninspiring. I've pretty much lost interest exploring the wilderness in Southern Ontario and spend much more time in Quebec these days, where the better topography makes it more fun for outdoor sports like mountain biking, rock climbing, via ferrata and ATV. Whitewater rafting on the Ottawa river is probably the best Southern Ontario activity that I would recommend to friends.

You need to really get out there in Southern Ontario to see the beauty of it. Cottage country gets progressively nicer as you go further east and it's the section east of Highway 41 that's the most beautiful. This is also the farthest part from Toronto so I get your point. It's also a bit more logistically inaccessible than equivalent scenery in Quebec. By that I mean to get to some of these perfectly beautiful spots in Frontenac County, for example, it means having to drive on a dirt road that the general public isn't allowed to drive on without buying a pass from the local ATV club (which anyone can buy for a fee, you just have to actually go get it during the hours they're open), park on the side of the road and then hike for 4 hours in a place where there are no signs or public washrooms. Personally I absolutely adore the "secret getaway" vibes that this sort of thing creates, but I 100% get why it's not everybody.

Some of it could honestly use a bit more development/polishing. Some funding for proper trails and amenities would go a long way out there. (I'd still be able to find the secret spots!). And there's plenty of nice spots further west where the infrastructure is more developed that GTAers could easily be spending more time at if they can get out of the GTA in the first place. A GO train to Peterborough with a carshare running out of it would really help.

If anyone has a sense of adventure and wants to check out some of these hidden spots in Eastern Ontario, feel free to DM me and ask for guide tips.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

If Toronto has TGV/Shinkansen to Montreal or Quebec it would be a game-changer. Imagine zipping 2-3 hours out to Quebec, and then pick up a rental car or car share to visit a SEPAQ parc. I think suddenly people in the GTA will feel much more connected to nature.

Cottage Country is pretty scenery wise for Ontario standards, but after spending a lot more time with SO's family in Quebec, coming back home it feels pedestrian and a bit uninspiring.

Okay, I was the one who said he was impressed with the SEPAQ system, but if I can be frank, Southern Quebec's natural beauty isn't so spectacular that, if there were a high speed train, I'd pay $800 for my family to ride, rent a car in Quebec City, and then drive to Jacques Cartier NP (which I've been to).

I'm impressed with the amenities and services offered by SEPAQ, not by the otherworldly natural beauty of southern Quebec.

---

I think Ontario and Toronto, by extension, gets slagged on a lot in this particular thread.

Ontario doesn't tug at a foreign visitor's heartstrings; a lot of what makes it 'interesting' is not accessible or superficial. You wouldn't go to the Shaw festival or the Shakespeare festival, even though they're both top notch. You would stare out at the sun setting over the vast expanse of Lake Huron and think "I've seen better ocean sunsets", but you're not on an ocean; this is a freshwater lake and there are no tides or the scent of the sea.

And same with Toronto. If you look at it as a sum of its parts, sometimes it feels like a lesser version of somewhere else more famous. The Financial District feels like a lesser version of Manhattan; the ethnic inner suburbs feel like a lesser version of LA; the endless skyscraper vistas feel like a lesser version of a Chinese megacity; Kensington Market feels like one of the London neighbourhoods; the U of T campus looks like a less opulent, less storied version of Oxbridge or even Yale; North York centre feels like something Asian again, only it's just one dimension up and down a strip; the streetcar suburbs look like smaller versions of Melbourne suburbs but with less wedding cake architecture. But taken as a whole, it's pretty wild that all those places exist in one city. And not even a megacity, just a large city. And unlike other cities of its size, Toronto isn't crawling with other tourists.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yes, I was referring to immigrants located in the GTA. Traffic is so bad these days, it could take a two hour drive on the weekend to get from Hamilton to Whitby (if say I wanted to hit the new spa Nordic) if you don't take the 407, so a drive to Niagara Falls could take up to 3 hours, and Algonquin could mean a 5-6 hour drive during the summer. An accident makes it all the more horrific, I remember once it took me 8 hours just to get back to Toronto after a car flipped on Hwy 60.

Even drives out to Sandbanks or Kawartha Highlands is now an easy 2-4 hour drive. Bruce Peninsula can drag out to a 5-6 hour drive as well.

If Toronto has TGV/Shinkansen to Montreal or Quebec it would be a game-changer. Imagine zipping 2-3 hours out to Quebec, and then pick up a rental car or car share to visit a SEPAQ parc. I think suddenly people in the GTA will feel much more connected to nature.

Cottage Country is pretty scenery wise for Ontario standards, but after spending a lot more time with SO's family in Quebec, coming back home it feels pedestrian and a bit uninspiring. I've pretty much lost interest exploring the wilderness in Southern Ontario and spend much more time in Quebec these days, where the better topography makes it more fun for outdoor sports like mountain biking, rock climbing, via ferrata and ATV. Whitewater rafting on the Ottawa river is probably the best Southern Ontario activity that I would recommend to friends.

What SEPAQ parks within 2-3 hours of Montreal or Quebec City can compare to Algonquin in terms of natural recreation opportunities? It's really world class not just in nature but the quality of the front and back country camping and trails.

[kwoldtimer]

Oh, good, more "versus".

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Oh, good, more "versus".

Fair. I didn't mean for it be a our nature is better than yours I just think the idea a highspeed train to Montreal is going to open up Ontario's immigrants to the joys of nature is beyond ridiculous.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What SEPAQ parks within 2-3 hours of Montreal or Quebec City can compare to Algonquin in terms of natural recreation opportunities? It's really world class not just in nature but the quality of the front and back country camping and trails.

Montréal is closer to the Adirondack Park than Toronto is to the Algonquin Park. It seems they have more choices of parks north, east, and south.

[Nashe]

All of us are pretty blessed to live in a country where naturally wondrous sights like that (and many others) are very commonplace.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Okay, I was the one who said he was impressed with the SEPAQ system, but if I can be frank, Southern Quebec's natural beauty isn't so spectacular that, if there were a high speed train, I'd pay $800 for my family to ride, rent a car in Quebec City, and then drive to Jacques Cartier NP (which I've been to).

I'm impressed with the amenities and services offered by SEPAQ, not by the otherworldly natural beauty of southern Quebec.

Yea, it's not the Alberta Rockies or BC, but it's the best we have on the eastern seaboard. Pairing a long weekend out there with an urban experience in Montreal and Quebec IMO beats spending time in Muskoka. You do hit on a good point though.. that it's utterly expensive to travel within Canada even to a neighbouring province, and this country's nature is not well connected by any form of affordable public transit. Going anywhere outdoorsy, especially from the GTA is a tiring, expensive and tedious chore.

[New Brisavoine]

Stunning. This place is 2 hours and 17 minutes from Montréal by car according to Google Map.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Hence the disinterest to discover Ontario, since it's not particularly appealing.

The motto “Yours to discover” being close to false advertising then…? (A less controversial one would be “There’s a number of things to do in Ontario” )