Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

In defense of Harper (ugh), that lady's question was loaded with colloquialisms someone like Steve would probably have trouble grasping, especially during a live debate.

I love how the first lady pronounces "précieux". It's very cute. It's a way of pronouncing the "r" which has been lost in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lol, no! I've listened to the video, no, he definitely doesn't sound French. A French person would never sound so good in English (well except me, but I'm the one odd case).

The best a French speaker from France is gonna sound in English is this, which is... quite lacking.

• Video Link

The only public French figure who has a good English accent is Christine Lagarde.

• Video Link

Hey, I said "almost"! Though I think Christine Lagarde's accent in English is better than Maxime Bernier's. She almost sounds germanic.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I am sure it was big deal when little old Ireland started outperforming the UK. (Yes I know the specific conditions that allowed that to happen.)

Oddly I've seen much less talk about it in the British media than the irritation when Italy passed them (well I wasn't around when it happened, but they still write about it today). Perhaps it's because it happened right when the UK was in the middle of the Brexit drama, and perhaps it's also because most people believe (rightly so) that Ireland is a tax haven, so its GDP per capita is artificial. But yeah, given the past history of Britain and Ireland, you would have expected more fuss. Perhaps also it shows that the English have always considered Ireland like a totally negligible quantity, so they don't really care what happens there.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hey, I said "almost"! Though I think Christine Lagarde's accent in English is better than Maxime Bernier's. She almost sounds germanic.

Maxime Bernier sounds more American, and Christine Lagarde sounds more British. I prefer the American accent. I find the British accent (well the Received Pronunciation at least, the one she uses) too snobbish.

For some reason I've never liked the British accent. At school in my class we learned English with US material (most memorably we spent a year dissecting the movie Guess Who is Coming to Diner ), so I've always had an American accent (although after 1 year of living in London I started to pronounce some words like the Brits ).

My pronunciation of "Southwark" (that district of London) made my English landlord laugh a lot (as I unsuspectingly pronounced it in an American way).

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Toronto has nothing in the metro area, but they're not that far away from the section of Ontario called "cottage country" - a band of forests & lakes that stretches from Parry Sound in the west all the way to the outskirts of Ottawa in the east which dips down almost to the US border near Kingston (you can see it very clearly in this Google satellite view as the green area north of the farmland area). This area is beautiful, very accessible for tourists (good road network throughout, lots of accommodations, etc.) and the more easterly part of it (which, granted, is a bit further from Toronto at about a 3-4 hour drive - still pretty close by Canadian standards!) contains some sections of genuine wilderness where you can hike for hours on a summer weekend without seeing a single other human. Last summer I hiked a hilltop around there (it's called "Evergreen Mountain" which is a somewhat dramatic name for a 420m peak - in fairness it is the tallest peak for about 20km in any surrounding direction and the north "slope" is a 100m cliff) which is 6km from the nearest all-weather road and probably 15km from the nearest house - despite being basically directly underneath the Toronto-Ottawa flight path. We were there all day and as far as we could tell, we had the entire hill to ourselves the whole time. We were probably at least 5km from the nearest other human.

Toronto folks are just not interested.

I find a lot of the disinterest in the GTA is also due to the crazy amount of time you have to travel to wilderness, especially given the epic traffic jams that takes hours just to get out of the city. The GTA is almost like the Netherlands, minus the efficient flight and rail networks to get out of town.

A lot of immigrants are also disappointed by the flat and unimpressive topography of Southern Ontario in general, and it's common to hear that they can find much better hiking back in the old country. Hence the disinterest to discover Ontario, since it's not particularly appealing.

[New Brisavoine]

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/de...t-fusionner-avec-les-etats-unis-20250106

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Maxime Bernier sounds more American, and Christine Lagarde sounds more British. I prefer the American accent. I find the British accent (well the Received Pronunciation at least, the one she uses) too snobbish.

For some reason I've never liked the British accent. At school in my class we learned English with US material (most memorably we spent a year dissecting the movie Guess Who is Coming to Diner ), so I've always had an American accent (although after 1 year of living in London I started to pronounce some words like the Brits ).

My pronunciation of "Southwark" (that district of London) made my English landlord laugh a lot (as I unsuspectingly pronounced it in an American way).

Funnily enough, a friend of mine is a lifelong Gatineau Québécoise born and raised (right next to Ottawa, Ontario) who is a French professor and her entire life (family, professional, social) is in French. In spite of living right next to an English-speaking Canadian city of 1 million people, she pronounces everything in English the British way. Having spent a year in England as a student in her youth. Seems like she hasn't rubbed shoulders enough with Anglo-Canadians over the past 40-50 years for the British accent to fade away.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

https://www.lefigaro.fr/international/de...t-fusionner-avec-les-etats-unis-20250106

As it interests you, you'll probably find more discussion about this particular topic over in a non provincially-focused thread here.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Torontonians are not outdoorsy. Quebecers are very outdoorsy. I, personally, am outdoorsy, and the thing I envy the most about Quebec is their excellent national parks system (SEPAQ), but few Torontonians I've talked to who have visited Quebec bring this up.

Reminds me of recent conversations I had with colleagues based in Toronto. I mentioned the SEPAQ parks (du Bic, Grands Jardin, Jacques Cartier, Fjord du Saugenay, Hautes-Gorge, de la Gaspesie, Mont-Megantic, Mt-Orfond etc.) that I've visited since COVID, but none of them had heard about these parks, and conceptually couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that Montreal and Quebec City is surrounded by spectacular nature.

All they're familiar with is Algonquin Park and maybe Killarney, French River for the better travelled. But none of them even knew where Pink Lake and le Parc de la Gatineau is. They also didn't know Tremblant is actually a SEPAQ park.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yeah, Vancouver looked like a very outdoorsy place when I visited. Much much more so than Seattle. If Toronto is as little outdoorsy as Seattle, then that sucks, as I'm a very outdoorsy person too (which kind of sucks in Paris too of course, but at least we have great ancient royal forests and woods all around the city if you care to go beyond the central areas, whereas Toronto doesn't seem to have much in terms of forests or nature areas in its metro area).

Toronto's much less outdoorsy than Seattle at least in my experience. At least in Seattle, I found a lot of people were at least familiar with the trails/parks in PNW, and had done some exploring nearby, up in Vancouver and Coastal BC or down in Oregon. Toronto's conception of nature literally revolves around one provincial park (Algonquin), Muskoka and Niagara Falls...it's as bad as Chicago.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I find a lot of the disinterest in the GTA is also due to the crazy amount of time you have to travel to wilderness, especially given the epic traffic jams that takes hours just to get out of the city. The GTA is almost like the Netherlands, minus the efficient flight and rail networks to get out of town.

A lot of immigrants are also disappointed by the flat and unimpressive topography of Southern Ontario in general, and it's common to hear that they can find much better hiking back in the old country. Hence the disinterest to discover Ontario, since it's not particularly appealing.

Whereas the gentle, rolling farmland of SOntario, with the bounty it promises, can make me quite emotional. To each their own.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Funnily enough, a friend of mine is a lifelong Gatineau Québécoise born and raised (right next to Ottawa, Ontario) who is a French professor and her entire life (family, professional, social) is in French. In spite of living right next to an English-speaking Canadian city of 1 million people, she pronounces everything in English the British way. Having spent a year in England as a student in her youth. Seems like she hasn't rubbed shoulders enough with Anglo-Canadians over the past 40-50 years for the British accent to fade away.

That could sound a bit affected, although I've known Quebeckers who've come back from the UK (and the USA) with similar afflictions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

That could sound a bit affected, although I've known Quebeckers who've come back from the UK (and the USA) with similar afflictions.

It definitely does sound "affected", though she is a lovely person so everything is forgiven.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It definitely does sound "affected", though she is a lovely person so everything is forgiven.

Same with the buddy of mine who came back from several years in London speaking about "Margaret Fatcher". I was able to convince him that he had been hanging with the wrong crowd over there!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Same with the buddy of mine who came back from several years in London speaking about "Margaret Fatcher". I was able to convince him that he had been hanging with the wrong crowd over there!

Wouldn't that be "Fatchah"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I find a lot of the disinterest in the GTA is also due to the crazy amount of time you have to travel to wilderness, especially given the epic traffic jams that takes hours just to get out of the city. The GTA is almost like the Netherlands, minus the efficient flight and rail networks to get out of town.

Yeah, according to Google Maps the closest areas in that wilderness band are 2 hours by car from Toronto. That's far! 2 hours by car from Paris you're on the beach (at Deauville, the very chic beach resort and casino town frequented by Parisians and jet setters).

In the Paris metro area you have areas of nature and outdoor activities MUCH closer than that. In just 15 minutes of Métro you have two of the largest urban woods in the world. And in half an hour you have some very large forests and lakes, parks.

Last year on an early warm Spring day I posted this on Twitter, which elicited some curiosity, with people (Parisians) asking me where it was. This is the sort of great nature you can find so close to the city center, and yet most Parisians are totally ignorant of it, because they seldom explore the outskirts of the city.

https://x.com/brisavoine/status/1770869206692536744

And then just 50 minutes by car (or 40 minutes by train) from Paris you have the huge forest of Fontainebleau, which is one of the best nature areas in Europe, and one of the largest forests of Europe. I knew one French engineer in the Silicon Valley who decided to return to Paris after a few years because he felt it was becoming boring in California (!), and one of the reasons he gave me was "I can go ride a bike in the forest of Fontainebleau over the weekend". This huge piece of the primeval forest of Europe that once covered the continent was saved by the French kings because they turned it into their favorite game preserve. It has some rock formations too and little mountains where people like to climb.

[hipster duck]

^That actually kind of looks like Ontario.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Nashe

As it interests you, you'll probably find more discussion about this particular topic over in a non provincially-focused thread here.

I think it's relevant too in a thread about Québec's secession, don't you think?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think it's relevant too in a thread about Québec's secession, don't you think?

There's a thread on Quebec's secession?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

At least in Seattle, I found a lot of people were at least familiar with the trails/parks in PNW, and had done some exploring nearby, up in Vancouver and Coastal BC or down in Oregon.

Oh yes they do, at least some of them (my friends do). But inside Seattle, in the city, it's incredible how not outdoorsy it is (as opposed to Vancouver). I spent an entire summer in Seattle and there wasn't even a park to go to, nobody doing stuff outside. Except Green Lake a little bit (but it's not very large). I knew one old lady, nearly 90 y/o, West Coast hippie style, who swam everyday in Green Lake (everybody told her she was crazy to do it, because of pollution). She wasn't from Seattle though (originally from Santa Barbara). Beverly was her name. But she was quite the one odd out. The rest of people in Seattle are not like that at all. Whereas the one day I spent in Vancouver I saw quite a few people doing outdoor activities right in the center of the city (Stanley Park if I remember correctly?).

[MolsonExport]

Inside the GTA




Just outside the GTA