Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Kilgore Trout]

Montreal's Chinese population is only a fraction of the GTA's — I think roughly 150,000 vs 700,000 — so obviously there won't be as much of a concentration as in Toronto. But Brossard serves the same role as Markham and lately there has been an exodus of established places from Chinatown/downtown to the South Shore.

But it's not just Chinatown and Brossard. Shaughnessy Village (west end of downtown near Concordia) has had a large Asian population for at least 25 years now and while it's not growing as much as before, it's still pretty dominant, and in fact it has supplanted Chinatown as the main destination for Chinese food and groceries in the downtown area. (There's also a lot of Korean places around there, as well as location of H Mart, the Korean grocery chain.)

Beyond that, there's a pretty sizeable Chinese community in Ville Saint-Laurent/Cartierville (hence the first T&T location there), on the West Island and in LaSalle. Also, a lot of the Chinese people in Montreal are from Southeast Asia, so there's a certain Chinese-Vietnamese and Chinese-Cambodian presence in Villeray/Saint-Michel too. There's a cluster of Chinese-Vietnamese businesses at Jean-Talon/St-Denis, for instance, and there's a particularly big Kim Phat supermarket on Jarry East.

Based on the 2001 census, these are the (very rough) concentrations of Chinese people in Montreal, with the range depending on the census tract:

• Chinatown: 20-70% Chinese

• Brossard south of boul. Napoléon: 25-50% Chinese

• LaSalle near Angrignon metro: 20-55% Chinese

• Shaughnessy Village: 20-33% Chinese

• Cartierville around Marlborough Park: 20-43% Chinese

• Vieux-Saint-Laurent: 15-20% Chinese

• Kirkland: 10-25% Chinese

LaSalle is the one most people would be surprised about, but numerically speaking it's one of the biggest Chinese population centres in Greater Montreal. It's pretty low-key but there are a number of Chinese supermarkets, though only a handful of restaurants.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Unless one is burning random found items to keep warm… like park benches, traffic cones, wooden/plastic signs, etc. Then nuclear generated electricity is starting to look pretty good.

The French Greens have, no surprise, always opposed nuclear energy, but they have also always opposed... electric heating. For YEARS they claimed electric heating was inefficient, bla bla bla, and they pushed for gas heating.

Now the chicken has come to roost and they are severally criticized for that, but unfortunately they've had 20 years to destroy our energy policies. In the 1970s and 1980s the French policy makers wanted to massively develop electric heating (at the time not for climate change reasons, but to make us independent from Middle Eastern potentates), but since 2000 there's been a reversal of that policy, with electric heating being badmouthed by the greens, and its development stopped. There's been a turnaround only in the past 2 years, with electric heating now becoming popular again. (but electricity in France costs twice more than 15 years ago due to the stupid taxes and electricity market put in place by our governments to promote wind turbines, which are useless in a country with nuclear power, but the Greens were for YEARS telling us "we're left behind by Germany (in terms of renewables), we are très en retard, we must catch up with Germany, bla bla bla"... the nonsense of all this really drives me mad)

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

...Personally if I want to eat Chinese food I want to eat Chinese food, not fusion. If I want Italian food I want real Italian food, not fusion...

Nothing against your preferences, of course; food is a very personal choice influenced by all aspects of our lives. It's worth noting, however, that your examples - Chinese and Italian cuisine - vary considerably from region to region within their respective nations. Chefs in Milan would have a very different opinion about "real" Italian food from those in Sicily!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It's worth noting, however, that your examples - Chinese and Italian cuisine - vary considerably from region to region within their respective nations. Chefs in Milan would have a very different opinion about "real" Italian food from those in Sicily!

Obviously Captain Obvious. I'm using the terms as all encompassing. Umbrella terms if you will.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Toronto to me seems to be about never-ending growth. For as long as I can remember on these online forums, that's the only thing the Toronto forumers ever talk about: growth, demographic growth especially, as if it was an end in itself. Never culture, learning, sex, whatever. No, just growth.

I wonder what happens when Toronto stops growing (which it eventually will, as no Western city can possibly grow beyond 20 million people). What then? Just the depression of having no other goal in life?

“There are a million things to do in Toronto, but no one seems to be having any fun doing them.” - a good friend of mine from overseas who lived there for a time

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Toronto to me seems to be about never-ending growth. For as long as I can remember on these online forums, that's the only thing the Toronto forumers ever talk about: growth, demographic growth especially, as if it was an end in itself. Never culture, learning, sex, whatever. No, just growth.

I wonder what happens when Toronto stops growing (which it eventually will, as no Western city can possibly grow beyond 20 million people). What then? Just the depression of having no other goal in life?

I remember that they used to say that Toronto would be a beautiful city if they ever get it finished. It's still true. Could it be the city that epitomizes "New World"?

Edit: I forgot NYC. Never mind.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I remember that they used to say that Toronto would be a beautiful city if they ever get it finished. It's still true. Could it be the city that epitomizes "New World"?

Edit: I forgot NYC. Never mind.

How can one forget NYC?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've never understood the North American taste for "fusion". Personally if I want to eat Chinese food I want to eat Chinese food, not fusion. If I want Italian food I want real Italian food, not fusion. Fusion is nothing. It's just fake. It would be like mixing a Goya with a 16th century Chinese painting. It makes no sense.

My personal explanation has always been that North Americans don't know who they are really, so they are a bit confused culturally.

Anyway, 'to each their own' as the parable says. Let those who like "fusion" have their fusion...

Often the fusion is because the people creating it are from more than one background or have lived in more than one country or have travelled to various countries and experienced different dishes.

It's not unique to North America.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've never understood the North American taste for "fusion". Personally if I want to eat Chinese food I want to eat Chinese food, not fusion. If I want Italian food I want real Italian food, not fusion. Fusion is nothing. It's just fake. It would be like mixing a Goya with a 16th century Chinese painting. It makes no sense.

My personal explanation has always been that North Americans don't know who they are really, so they are a bit confused culturally.

Anyway, 'to each their own' as the parable says. Let those who like "fusion" have their fusion...

Preach, brother. When I want some Mexican food I usually go for a good ol' French Taco.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by theman23

Preach, brother. When I want some Mexican food I usually go for a good ol' French Taco.

I’ve seen videos about French tacos. Confusion in a nutshell. Some things should never have been invented.

I wonder what NB’s delicate French palate thinks about poutine.

Actually, so many things get thrown on poutines these days that it is almost the definition of fusion cuisine.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How can one forget NYC?

One is getting older and has "moments".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

“There are a million things to do in Toronto, but no one seems to be having any fun doing them.” - a good friend of mine from overseas who lived there for a time

Could it be the weather? Having Russian weather must not exactly incline people to be all super happy and full of energy. But then Québec has even worse weather.

It's one thing I like about California, when you're there it always pumps up your energy and gives you tons of stamina. Could be the weather, but could also be the telluric forces, because I've also felt that same energy in other areas full of telluric forces where I've lived (Mexico City, Taipei). Places with 0 telluric forces (like London, Paris, and admittedly Toronto) don't have that energy pushing you to do lots of stuff. But then again, Québec has no more telluric forces than Toronto.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Often the fusion is because the people creating it are from more than one background or have lived in more than one country or have travelled to various countries and experienced different dishes.

It's not unique to North America.

You find that much, much, MUCH more in North America than in either Europe or Asia.

[Kilgore Trout]

Really? Taking Asia as an example, there are a million examples of "fusion" food that have become part of the local cuisine. Cantonese egg tarts are based on English custard tarts. Hong Kong-style borscht is the product of a wave of Russian migration, first to Shanghai post-1917, then to Hong Kong post-1949. (Russian-style cakes are also the norm in Hong Kong, but adapted to local tastes with ingredients such as mango.) The Mexico bun was created by Chinese-Mexicans who were inspired by conchas. These are all examples from Hong Kong, but they've spread around the world, which is why you can find Hong Kong-style egg tarts in almost every Chinatown.

Ramen is not originally from Japan: it's a Japanese adaptation of Chinese lamian that only became popular about 100 years ago when it spread out from Yokohama Chinatown. And yet now it's synonymous with Japanese cuisine. Incidentally, Japan is absolutely full of fusion dishes with foreign origins that have become quintessentially Japanese, like tempura, omurice, Japanese curry, gyoza and so forth.

Southeast Asian countries are full of dishes that are the product of Chinese migrants adapting their cuisine to local ingredients and tastes. Which is why there is a distinct style of Hainan chicken in Thailand, for instance. Bangkok's famous Michelin-rated oyster omelettes are a distinct Thai-style variation on a classic Hokkien dish. Or pretty much every Thai-style noodle soup. These are generally considered Thai dishes, not foreign Chinese dishes.

Even in Europe, you have many examples like Berlin döner kebab which is quite distinct from what is consumed in Turkey, to the point where you have restaurants around the world specifically serving Berlin döner and not Turkish döner. Or couscous royal, which is like the Hawaiian pizza of couscous: an innovation unique to France.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

there are a million examples of "fusion" food that have become part of the local cuisine

Are you sure it's not billion?

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Even in Europe, you have many examples like Berlin döner kebab which is quite distinct from what is consumed in Turkey, to the point where you have restaurants around the world specifically serving Berlin döner and not Turkish döner. Or couscous royal, which is like the Hawaiian pizza of couscous: an innovation unique to France.

I think you're confusing adaption to local tastes and fusion. Fusion would be something like mixing boeuf bourguignon and coucous, which would be utterly weird.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

...I think you're confusing adaption to local tastes and fusion. Fusion would be something like mixing boeuf bourguignon and coucous, which would be utterly weird.

From Wikipedia:

Fusion cuisine is a cuisine that combines elements of different culinary traditions that originate from different countries, regions, or cultures. Cuisines of this type are not categorized according to any one particular cuisine style and have played a part in many contemporary restaurant cuisines since the 1970s.

The term fusion cuisine, added to the Oxford English Dictionary in 2002, is defined as "a style of cookery which blends ingredients and methods of preparation from different countries, regions, or ethnic groups; food cooked in this style."

Later in the article, it mentions:

...utilizing ingredients and flavors from one culture to create a unique twist on a dish from the different cultures...

[Kilgore Trout]

I was responding to your comment about Loco101’s reply that adapting cuisines to local ingredients/tastes is more common in America than in Asia or Europe.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

From Wikipedia:



Later in the article, it mentions:

Yeah, there's no meaningful distinction. When someone makes a good point and makes you look foolish, you can always save face by scrutinizing semantics. There aren't many fusion restaurants serving mac and cheese flavoured with turkish icream, and they certainly aren't "popular" in North America.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by theman23

Yeah, there's no meaningful distinction. When someone makes a good point and makes you look foolish, you can always save face by scrutinizing semantics. There aren't many fusion restaurants serving mac and cheese flavoured with turkish icream, and they certainly aren't "popular" in North America.

Fusion doesn't have to be related to local cuisine. Vancouver has some Italian Japanese restaurants for example. OTOH, adaptation is a normal occurrence that comes from a blending of existing local cultures at a grassroots level; I've sometimes eaten with chopsticks in one hand and a fork in the other. Fusion is considered more haute cuisine. In today's woke elitist society however, you could get accused of appropriation rather than adaptation.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

Yeah, there's no meaningful distinction. When someone makes a good point and makes you look foolish, you can always save face by scrutinizing semantics. There aren't many fusion restaurants serving mac and cheese flavoured with turkish icream, and they certainly aren't "popular" in North America.

There are literally restaurants called "fusion" or advertising "fusion" everywhere in North America. I have never seen that in Europe or Asia. The fact that some Turkish immigrants adapt a Turkish dish in Germany to whatever ingredients they can find there is no different from certain Chinese dishes found in Chinese restaurants in the US which were developed in the US with local ingredients and are not found in Asia (such as that Chinese dish of chicken with some little wheat wraps whose name I can't remember now, which you won't find in Asia, and you won't find in Europe either). That's not fusion. Fusion is something else altogether.