Haifax-Dartmouth Bridge Commission

[q12]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

Just because there is congestion AT the tolls, doesn't mean that they caused it or that it would be better if they weren't there.

Yes it does! The image above is not a specific day of the year but the typical (average) Thursday at 8:15am. Google data from drivers shows they are slowed at the toll booths.

Here is a historical Google Earth Satellite Image showing this congestion at the tolls:

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by q12

Yes it does! The image above is not a specific day of the year but the typical (average) Thursday at 8:15am. Google data from drivers shows they are slowed at the toll booths.

Here is a historical Google Earth Satellite Image showing this congestion at the tolls:

What I mean is, the congestion may be displaced by the tolls or reduced by them. You'd need to simulate (like some traffic engineers reportedly have) what would happen without toll booths. I've heard them interviewed saying that the booths help reorganize multiple lanes into 1 or 2 and help manage congestion that would otherwise happen without them.

[q12]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

the booths help reorganize multiple lanes into 1 or 2 and help manage congestion that would otherwise happen without them.

The problem is 7 toll lanes merging into 2 lanes.

This video shows the congestion created at the merge point after the tolls.
• Video Link

Of course there will still be congestion coming off the bridge (Halifax bound) because of the Windsor Street Exchange. But at least it's getting a redesign.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

Hit reply before checking if anyone else had followed-up. Sorrry... I didn't add much to the conversation.

Hey no worries! I’ve done that before, it’s part of being human. I was just reacting to being scolded twice for the same bone-headed post (my bone-headed post, to be clear).

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I think they're different. Cobequid Pass is significant transportation corridor for goods between NS and elsewhere - I think it's more siginficant economically for the province than the bridges, which I tend to view as conveniences for those living in/visiting Halifax-Dartmouth (or not convenience in your case). High-sided vehicles aren't supposed to use the bridges, and we have all seen the number of vehicles that can't even get through the booths, so major goods have to go around the harbour if they're on trucks and not rail. I can see the economic reason for general tax base to pay for Cobequid Pass and other major routes that serve to move goods/trade throughout the region and to the rest of Canada. I just haven't been convinced that the same argument exists for the bridges.

For what it's worth, the argument the Conservatives made was that it would reduce commute times... which, LOL, I doubt. When asked by the press about who had provided expert insight into the benefits, the Premier was not able to answer despite saying he'd consulted with some... since then, any traffic engineer I've seen/heard interviewed about it says that removing the tolls will not improve commute times (limiting factors being the street networks landside - particularly for the MacDonald) and may even increase congestion (with the tolls serving as a way to reorganize multiple lanes into 1 or 2 in an organic way).

I would agree that they are different, but they are also important in different ways. While yes, the bridges are a convenience to many, they are also necessary road capacity to travel between cities, especially for commuting workers. Just look at the Bedford Highway and 102 backups when one or both of the bridges are closed… if we had to deal with that every day, there would be a definite economic hit, including all the goods that would be delayed because the trucks were caught in traffic jams.

I don’t have anything to add to the toll booth congestion issue, as they can be a factor, IMHO, but it’s also true that there is always congestion on the Halifax side of the bridges every day at rush hour. Basically our city is pretty much at capacity for car/truck traffic, and while our population continues to grow, other options like transit are slow to develop, which brings me full circle to why I’m feeling that the frustration of discussing things that don’t change is making me question my personal participation in them (right, Keith? ).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Just for the record, my angle is anything but political. I have no affiliation or connection of any sort with any party, never have had, and never want to. I find them repulsive.

Anyway, I appreciate your position - and your fatigue and disinterest with the topic. Enough said.

Thanks for the clarity and the consideration! Enough said from me as well.

Keith can now have the floor!

[DBaz]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

… You’re a hoot, Keith!

That’s one way to put it…

[Nouvellecosse]

Stopping obviously does reduce traffic speeds so it's possible that the tolls slow down commute times. But only if the full unobstructed traffic volume coming from the bridge wouldn't meet some other obstacle such as streets with limited capacity on the other side which would otherwise have been mitigated by the lower flow on the bridge itself.

And it also ignores that the cost and inconvenience of a toll is also a disincentive which reduces demand. In that sense it's basically like a mild form of congestion pricing even if it isn't a high enough cost to prevent congestion. That's because any additional cost in time, effort or money has an influence on travel patterns. So reducing a disincentive to driving on a particular route will result in greater demand. And that demand may not result in increased congestion on the bridge itself, but any traffic volume increase makes congestion likelier somewhere.

So we can confidently say that the tolls don't increase overall travel times during peak periods unless there's some pretty compelling evidence to the contrary.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So we can confidently say that the tolls don't increase overall travel times during peak periods unless there's some pretty compelling evidence to the contrary.

Did you even watch the video I posted? How is that not evidence?

I've driven across the bridge during peak hours more times than I can count, and I have seen first hand the congestion caused solely by the tolls. The tolls also cause accidents which lead to more congestion. It can't be more evident. The current outdated toll booths 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

So we can confidently say the design of the current ancient toll booths increase overall travel times during peak periods.

Here is when the toll booths didn't cause a problem in 1970:

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by q12

Did you even watch the video I posted? How is that not evidence?

I've driven across the bridge during peak hours more times than I can count, and I have seen first hand the congestion caused solely by the tolls. The tolls also cause accidents which lead to more congestion. It can't be more evident. The current outdated toll booths 🞵🞵🞵🞵.

So we can confidently say the design of the current ancient toll booths increase overall travel times during peak periods.

Here is when the toll booths didn't cause a problem in 1970:

[/IMG]

I didn't watch the video because I don't need to see a video of traffic on a highway I'm intimately familiar with in person. And it doesn't affect the wider point that seeing traffic backed up in one place isn't evidence that it wouldn't be backed up in another place if the first obstruction wasn't there. If the roads on the opposite side can only absorb X number of vehicles per hour and there's a filter preventing more than that number from crossing the bridge to begin with, if you remove that filter then the vehicles would simply hit the second barrier which is the capacity of the roads further up stream. So no, the video nor the claim of increased accident rates are not evidence that it increases overall travel times.

[q12]

Just to be clear I'm not arguing over whether they collect a toll. I just wanted to point out that the current toll plaza at the Mackay Bridge is a problem and contributes to traffic congestion.

An electronic toll system like the 407 in Ontario would eliminate this issue and that's what HHB has been trying to do, it's just taken too damn long.

Halifax Harbour Bridges is literally quoted in multiple news stories for wanting to remove the old toll plaza because of all the traffic problems they cause:

Proctor said the eventual plan is to remove the canopies altogether, though that likely won’t happen for another couple of years.

“The long-term plan is to have a flow-through traffic any way using video tolling, where we’ll be able to get rid of the toll booth system,” he said.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8266165/mackay-bridge-clearance-bars-canopy-strikes/

"You have people in their vehicles that might get stuck behind a gate not going up, sometimes they back up in their lane, they get out of their car, so there are safety issues with the current system."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...nald-mackay-cash-toll-cashless-1.4231008

Transition to electronic tolling
The transition to sticker passes is part of Halifax Harbour Bridges' long-time plan to move to complete electronic tolling, Proctor said.

The bridge authority has considered removing the physical toll booths for a decade and is now making steps in that direction, he said.

"There's a lot of work we were moving forward, but it's going to be two to three years before anybody actually sees that coming to fruition from a physical point of view. But that's part of why we're doing this," Proctor said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scot...s-transition-stickers-december-1.7191907

[q12]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So no, the video nor the claim of increased accident rates are not evidence that it increases overall travel times.

Watch the video. It's evidence.

All I want is electronic only tolling using a new overhead gantry (aka Open road tolling). The old concrete plaza is a problem and HHB agrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_road_tolling

Collection of tolls on open toll roads is usually conducted through either the use of transponders or automatic plate recognition, the vast majority of which utilizes an overhead gantry system above the road. While rarely used as the primary vehicle identification method, automatic number plate recognition is used on a number of different highway systems. Both methods aims to eliminate the delay on toll roads by collecting tolls electronically by electronically debiting the accounts of registered car owners without requiring them to stop

I could care less if you have to pay a toll to cross the harbour.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by q12

Watch the video. It's evidence.

All I want is electronic only tolling using a new overhead gantry (aka Open road tolling). The old concrete plaza is a problem and HHB agrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_road_tolling



I could care less if you have to pay a toll to cross the harbour.

I watched it just now and it showed nothing different than I've seen countless times before. I'm not sure what part of "I'm intimately familiar with the bridge" was unclear. The whole concept that there is congestion or traffic slowing at the bridge cannot, alone, be evidence of increased peak travel times regardless of what it shows. Because that would require further information from the rest of the traffic system.

The best way to think of the traffic flow is to compare it to someone who's frustrated after buying a swimming pool that takes ages to fill with their garden hose connected to an outdoor facet. So they buy a new facet with a higher flow rate since their plumbing is capable of delivering more water, only to discover that the overall flow doesn't increase because the hose flow rate isn't any higher than the old facet was. No now the bottle neck is the hose instead of the facet. Except the facet being the bridge and the hose being the roads on the other side of the bridge.

We know that even with the toll booths limiting flow across the bridge, there is still congestion on the other side such as the Windsor St diamond, Connaught, Bedford hwy, Barrington etc. so further increasing the flow across the bridge feeding into those already congested places will just move the congestion there. But the video didn't continue recording long enough to see it meet those choke points. The video also didn't show the peak period which is where congestion tends to occur as it's backed up much farther than that at peak. ANd the peak periods is also when the bulk of commuters are crossing.

[q12]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

We know that even with the toll booths limiting flow across the bridge, there is still congestion on the other side such as the Windsor St diamond, Connaught, Bedford hwy, Barrington etc. so further increasing the flow across the bridge feeding into those already congested places will just move the congestion there.

I never said that removing the current toll plaza would eliminate congestion due to the Peninsula road infrastructure.

The good news is old toll plaza is being removed very soon. Whether it's because they remove the tolls completely or move to an open road tolling system is not my concern.

Will there still be traffic congestion on the Mackay Bridge? Absolutely!

Will I get stuck in a traffic jam because some idiot backed up in the toll booths and caused an accident or rammed their truck into the car lane? No. Will I have to endure merging with people who don't know how to merge 7 lanes into 2, no.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Sorry to disappoint, but there were no vows involved, just statements of how I was feeling about it in the moment. If you don’t like what I write, don’t read it.

Your bluster seems odd, coming from the king of long-winded opinionated rants. Since you regularly feel entitled to post in such a way, then there’s no place in the wide world of sports where your opinion and criticism of me will ever be taken even the slightest bit seriously. Don’t waste your time, as I’m sure there’s a bike lane somewhere for you to rant about that will give you a more satisfying reaction than mine… You’re a hoot, Keith!

Mark, Mark, Mark… you are nothing if not predictable. I was just poking your bearish self for your proclivity to make pronouncements about your future behavior which inevitably you transgress in short order as in this instance. I found it funny, as I usually do. It goes back, I think, to the old British schlick about longtime politicians getting up in front of a crowd to make yet another speech and starting off by saying “Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking…” and then making a stem-winder of an oration. In your case you state your withdrawal from a discussion and then dive back in. It’s as entertaining as it is predictable.

[Empire]

Highway tolls in Portugal on the A22 operate at highway speed.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@37.1514212,-..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIxMS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Empire

Highway tolls in Portugal on the A22 operate at highway speed.

This has been the norm around here (BC/WA, elsewhere) for a decade or so. A camera reads the license plate and the owner of the vehicle is billed.

I think it makes sense for bridges to be user pay and to set pricing to avoid congestion, but it does not make sense to artificially create congestion with poor tolling practices. That is just waste.

Not sure why Halifax is behind the times on these things. To me it feels like having a debate about how tap to pay is bad and everybody should have to swipe their credit card or something like that.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

This has been the norm around here (BC/WA, elsewhere) for a decade or so. A camera reads the license plate and the owner of the vehicle is billed.

I think it makes sense for bridges to be user pay and to set pricing to avoid congestion, but it does not make sense to artificially create congestion with poor tolling practices. That is just waste.

Not sure why Halifax is behind the times on these things. To me it feels like having a debate about how tap to pay is bad and everybody should have to swipe their credit card or something like that.

Nobody is arguing toll booths are better just because some of the claims people make about them causing congestion are unsubstantiated. If we're going to spend a significant amount of money on something it should be based on actual facts rather than intuition.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Nobody is arguing toll booths are better just because some of the claims people make about them causing congestion are unsubstantiated. If we're going to spend a significant amount of money on something it should be based on actual facts rather than intuition.

It seems to me that the more important discussion is how the removal of tolls will do away with almost $40 million in revenue that is used to maintain the bridges.

The Hueston government wants to pay for repairs out of provincial coffers. Isn’t there something better that the government could spend this money on,…and keep it directed to transportation.

Instead of $40 million in bridge repairs, why not spend it on buses or towards the BRT.

Personally, I believe that we should have tolls on some highways to keep them in better shape. One only has to look at the condition of some of our 400 series highways to see that provincial coffers should not be relied upon to pay for their general upkeep. We are not a wealthy province.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

I buy into the argument that the tollbooth-slowed traffic on the bridge assists in traffic management on the peninsula. If there is to be congestion anywhere, I'd rather have it be on the bridge rather than on city streets with home and retail driveways, hospital and emergency vehicle driveways and cross streets, etc.. That's not to say it's an ideal situation. Removing the booths would perhaps assist in speeding-up traffic exiting the peninsula.

[q12]

The problem with congestion on the bridges is they have no emergency lane/shoulder that a modern bridge would have.

Ambulances have to cross the bridges and I've witness first hand how ridiculously slow it is for an EHS ambulance with lights and sirens in bumper to bumper traffic (both directions) as vehicles have no shoulder to move over.

Halifax traffic: First responders on ‘crazy’ congestion, how it slows them down

“You’ll get some people who will drive up on the curb to give you some room, but most people just freeze,” he explained.

“And then you’re stuck. It gets to the point where you shut your siren off because you’re not moving.”

https://globalnews.ca/news/10857955/ns-election-2024-halifax-traffic-first-responders/