Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting how much Quebec's role on Canada's national teams and in the NHL have fallen. Any insight on why this is happening?

It is the QMJHL (recently renamed the Quebec Maritimes Junior Hockey League, since 1/3 of the teams are actually located in Atlantic Canada), and we have noticed for some time there is a definite bias towards players from the OHL and the WHL when it comes to player selection for Team Canada at the World Junior Championships.

Meanwhile, four of the last five Memorial Cup champion teams have been from the QMJHL (Acadie-Bathurst, Saint John, Quebec City and Rouyn-Noranda).

This seems somewhat incongruous doesn't it???

[theman23]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It is the QMJHL (recently renamed the Quebec Maritimes Junior Hockey League, since 1/3 of the teams are actually located in Atlantic Canada), and we have noticed for some time there is a definite bias towards players from the OHL and the WHL when it comes to player selection for Team Canada at the World Junior Championships.

Meanwhile, four of the last five Memorial Cup champion teams have been from the QMJHL (Acadie-Bathurst, Saint John, Quebec City and Rouyn-Noranda).

This seems somewhat incongruous doesn't it???

Not really, the top players still mostly come from OHL and WHL who are often now in the NHL by the age of 19 or 20. Memorial cup winners are often led by overagers who are too old to play in the WJC. The Rempart's 5 leading scorers were all 20 years or older.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

The food scene in Vancouver and Toronto are probably more vibrant than Montreal at this point.

I've heard that before regarding Paris vs London (British forumers claiming that the food scene in London is more 'vibrant' and diverse). Problem is: the food scene (i.e. restaurants) don't tell you much about the place or importance of food in a society, since people eat at home most of the time, and most of the food we eat is the one we buy at the suppermarket/food stores and prepare/cook at home.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've heard that before regarding Paris vs London (British forumers claiming that the food scene in London is more 'vibrant' and diverse). Problem is: the food scene (i.e. restaurants) don't tell you much about the place or importance of food in a society, since people eat at home most of the time, and most of the food we eat is the one we buy at the suppermarket/food stores and prepare/cook at home.

Never been to the UK so I couldn't tell you. I wouldn't take your word for it though.

There's a saturation of bougie grocery options in Vancouver and Toronto and just about every social situation revolves around food. To be honest I don't know how it compares to Montreal when it comes to dining at home, but judging by the availability of gourmand grocery options it doesn't seem very different. At the very least it's not true that Anglos "only eat to live" given how heavily social situations revolve around eating in both Vancouver and Toronto, in particular the latter. I wouldn't expect a foreigner who likely never had a social circle in either city to have any insight into this.

As far as eating out vs at home, that's also something that differs depending on your age, family structure and life circumstances. A 50 something year old childless couple living in downtown Toronto likely has far more meals outside the house than, say, a 50 something year old couple raising teenagers in suburban Ottawa.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

There's a saturation of bougie grocery options in Vancouver and Toronto and just about every social situation revolves around food. To be honest I don't know how it compares to Montreal when it comes to dining at home, but judging by the availability of gourmand grocery options it doesn't seem very different. At the very least it's not true that Anglos "only eat to live" given how heavily social situations revolve around eating in both Vancouver and Toronto, in particular the latter. I wouldn't expect a foreigner who likely never had a social circle in either city to have any insight into this.

Well, all very nice, but OECD has the stats, and Canada is right there at the bottom along with the US. France is #1 (no surprise there for anyone like me who has lived in both countries).

[theman23]

Perhaps you can link the data set, since the OECD graphics do not always use standardized data.

This data would support your overall point, but is not consistent with the OECD graph. The difference is also not as great as you make it out to be and it is still 10 years out of date. A lot has changed in both Vancouver and Toronto's culinary scene since then. It also wouldn't account for zoomers and progressively wealthier millennials who, for the most part, eat out more often than Gen X and Boomers.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/11-627-m/11-627-m2018003-eng.pdf?st=KFWVPlZW

I'm also not sure if this is the best way to measure the value people place on eating. There are a lot of things that could influence time spent eating that are external and the actual time spent eating isn't necessarily the same as the ideal time spent eating.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by theman23

Not really, the top players still mostly come from OHL and WHL who are often now in the NHL by the age of 19 or 20. Memorial cup winners are often led by overagers who are too old to play in the WJC. The Rempart's 5 leading scorers were all 20 years or older.

There is a cap of three overagers per club (not five). Also, the maximum age is 20 year old (not above). I think the same rules apply to the OHL and WHL.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

This data would support your overall point, but is not consistent with the OECD graph.

The difference is explained on the graph, if you care to read it carefully. The OECD graph is the amount of time spent eating and drinking by the population BETWEEN THE AGES OF 15 AND 64, i.e. the working age population, whereas your Statcan graph probably refers to the entire population, including the retirees who have typically more time to eat and belong to generations who spent more time eating. The OECD graph is particularly interesting because it shows that the Latin people of Europe of WORKING AGE spend twice more time eating than the population of working age of North America.

In any case your Statcan graph does show that people in Québec do spend more time eating than in the ROC. So, care to recognize who was right here?



Interestingly the discrepancy is not as big as between French people and North American people, but this doesn't surprise me: the Québécois society was a peasant society living with very little, in a northern climate with little diversity of food, so they probably did not (historically) develop the same refined culinary culture as in France where people were wealthier and with a more diverse climate with much more food products available. That being said, despite these elements (poverty and northern climate), they nonetheless spend significantly longer eating than in the ROC, which once again shows that some cultural traits (inherited from the French colonial period) go back way before Canada was even founded.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The difference is explained on the graph, if you care to read it carefully. The OECD graph is the amount of time spent eating and drinking by the population BETWEEN THE AGES OF 15 AND 64, i.e. the working age population, whereas your Statcan graph probably refers to the entire population, including the retirees who have typically more time to eat and belong to generations who spent more time eating. The OECD graph is particularly interesting because it shows that the Latin people of Europe of WORKING AGE spend twice more time eating than the population of working age of North America.

In any case your Statcan graph does show that people in Québec do spend more time eating than in the ROC. So, care to recognize who was right here?



Interestingly the discrepancy is not as big as between French people and North American people, but this doesn't surprise me: the Québécois society was a peasant society living with very little, in a northern climate with little diversity of food, so they probably did not (historically) develop the same refined culinary culture as in France where people were wealthier and with a more diverse climate with much more food products available. That being said, despite these elements (poverty and northern climate), they nonetheless spend significantly longer eating than in the ROC, which once again shows that some cultural traits (inherited from the French colonial period) go back way before Canada was even founded.

I've already acknowledged that my link supports your point, its in the text that you quoted. Regardless, my latter point still stands - time spent eating as a statistic has as much or more to do with quality of life than the value people place on eating.

It still would be interesting to see the OECD data set. They often compile data from national statistics agencies, but a statistic like "time spent eating" is probably not measured very often. Often times the data points for a figure like that come from very different periods so aren't actually comparable.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by theman23

It still would be interesting to see the OECD data set.

They've stopped producing that stat apparently (their statistical website underwent a major rehaul last year). They now have time spent for "personal care", which includes much more than just eating.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a cap of three overagers per club (not five). Also, the maximum age is 20 year old (not above). I think the same rules apply to the OHL and WHL.

I also don’t understand why OHL and WHL clubs don’t use the same strategy if they want to win the Memorial Cup. Nothing preventing.

BTW it’s not news to any hockey or sports fan in Quebec that Hockey Canada and many other national sports federations are not always very fond of francophone athletes.

It was even a topic of discussion at the New Year’s party among the men last night.

I guess Hockey Canada would be right to do what they do if they consistently won gold medals, right? Right?!?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Well, all very nice, but OECD has the stats, and Canada is right there at the bottom along with the US. France is #1 (no surprise there for anyone like me who has lived in both countries).

Imagine how “dine and dash” Canada would be if it didn’t have Quebec to bring its numbers up!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

BTW it’s not news to any hockey or sports fan old in Quebec that Hockey Canada and many other national sports federations are not always very fond of francophone athletes.

It was even a topic of discussion at the New Year’s party among the men last night.

Hold on there young fella, are you sure it’s a case of Anglo Canadian ethnocultural and linguistic imperialism? Like I pointed out, 1/3rd of QMJHL teams are in Atlantic Canada and NOT Quebec. Even us lower class Anglo Maritimers have noticed this slight. We’re included in this too!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Imagine how “dine and dash” Canada would be if it didn’t have Quebec to bring its numbers up!

What's puzzling is why the Australians take so much more time to eat than the North Americans.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anyway, perhaps you've seen the tragedy in New Orleans. I've found something interesting. Here in France they say it happened in "le Quartier français", no need to explain what it is, everybody knows, and we use just the French name.

In complement to my previous post, I've noticed the French officials on Twitter have reacted almost like New Orleans was a French city, or very close to French hearts let's say.

Here the president himself:



Here the MP from Nouméa in New Caledonia. Can you imagine, if a terror attack had happened in Toronto, some British MPs calling Toronto "this so very British city"? Or the British PM calling Toronto "so dear to hearts of the British people"?



And this is JUST New Orleans, so I let you imagine what it would be if it was a terror attack in Montréal.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There is a cap of three overagers per club (not five). Also, the maximum age is 20 year old (not above). I think the same rules apply to the OHL and WHL.

I did say 19 and 20 year olds, not that they were all over agers. The Remparts had three overagers and two players who had turned 20 during the season in their top 5 scorers.

The reality is that memorial cup has not been a great gauge of where the talent in this country is coming from, especially with top players increasingly jumping to the NHL in their teens or heading the NCAA route (which we'll see much more of with the new NCAA eligibility rule changes allowing junior players to make the jump). Quebec has not produced a top-level NHL player in about 25 years (Huberdeau being the closest) and while the Atlantic has has had some elite talent it's a small part of the country and would be expected to have low representation on average at the WJC.

[Acajack]

I am pretty sure Quebecers spend more on groceries and fresh food per person than other Canadians do.

Originally Posted by theman23

Never been to the UK so I couldn't tell you. I wouldn't take your word for it though.

There's a saturation of bougie grocery options in Vancouver and Toronto and just about every social situation revolves around food. To be honest I don't know how it compares to Montreal when it comes to dining at home, but judging by the availability of gourmand grocery options it doesn't seem very different. At the very least it's not true that Anglos "only eat to live" given how heavily social situations revolve around eating in both Vancouver and Toronto, in particular the latter. I wouldn't expect a foreigner who likely never had a social circle in either city to have any insight into this.

As far as eating out vs at home, that's also something that differs depending on your age, family structure and life circumstances. A 50 something year old childless couple living in downtown Toronto likely has far more meals outside the house than, say, a 50 something year old couple raising teenagers in suburban Ottawa.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Hold on there young fella, are you sure it’s a case of Anglo Canadian ethnocultural and linguistic imperialism? Like I pointed out, 1/3rd of QMJHL teams are in Atlantic Canada and NOT Quebec. Even us lower class Anglo Maritimers have noticed this slight. We’re included in this too!

It may be that the Q gets too little respect but discrimination against francophones has been documented from Hockey Canada and national teams all the way to the NHL. Racial slurs against francophones (frog) are the only slurs that go unpunished in the league.

And as I said there are issues with other sports too.

C'est la vie, I guess.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also don’t understand why OHL and WHL clubs don’t use the same strategy if they want to win the Memorial Cup. Nothing preventing.

BTW it’s not news to any hockey or sports fan in Quebec that Hockey Canada and many other national sports federations are not always very fond of francophone athletes.

It was even a topic of discussion at the New Year’s party among the men last night.

I guess Hockey Canada would be right to do what they do if they consistently won gold medals, right? Right?!?

Everything is about aggrievement for Quebecers huh? The team left off some top draft picks but they are all Anglophones. Who wasn't included?
The NHL is performance driven and pretty clearly shows Quebec is a declining hockey power. Marchessault is getting old and once he's gone is there another star marquee skater? Huberdeau is having a decent year I guess.

There's usually a good goalie. Motembeault could make a full NHL Team Canada. But he might be the only one right now.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am pretty sure Quebecers spend more on groceries and fresh food per person than other Canadians do.

The Quebeckers I've known have always seemed less price conscious at the supermarket. Although in Ottawa nowadays, people seem happy to shell out beaucoup dollars at farmers' markets, which is the reverse of what I grew up with (you went to a farmers' market for good food at lower prices).