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  #11581  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Keeping in mind that half or more of the "MOC" would be simply... Ontario.

There is a lot of talk about hardball on these trade agreements post-independence but the vast majority of Ontario-based corporations have at least a quarter of their business in Quebec. Probably more than that. I am just going by Quebec's rough population share in Canada, but given that Quebec is right next door, it could be more than 25% of their business that is in Quebec for many many Ontario suppliers and producers.

No matter how pissed they are at Quebec becoming independent, they are not going to want to lose that and the pressure on Toronto and Ottawa to protect access to that market share will be huge. Keeping in mind as I said that half of Canada-sans-Québec will be Ontario.

In terms of international trade deals it might not be Canada-sans-Québec that plays hardball with Quebec, but the other partners who might tell us divided frostbacks that we're not bringing the same thing to the table that we did when the deal was signed. And wanting to reopen or renegotiate things.

You might actually see Canada-sans-Québec and Québec form a united front and say "Hey guys, we're still the same market we used to be!" in order to save these deals.
Yeah. I tend to think that if Quebec votes to secede, constitutional wrangling within the ROC will be a bigger problem for it than negotiating with Quebec will be. You'll have Ontario wanting to largely continue the status quo of the Canadian federation just without Quebec, and provinces like Alberta & Saskatchewan will be demanding that the ROC be restructured with greater provincial autonomy. If there's a LPC government in Ottawa, Alberta might even threaten its own sovereignty referendum to gain leverage over Ottawa in this scenario.
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  #11582  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 6:32 PM
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For those in the ROC that could care less about Quebec separating (which is hard for me to understand, given how much the history of Quebec is so woven into that of Canada's, not to mention the incredible past and present contributions of Quebec to the Canadian "family"), all I can say is, well, they shouldn't be disinterested.

Rump Canada, post separation, would be utterly and overwhelmingly dominated by Ontario, which would comprise half of the post-separation Canadian population. By population heft alone, Ontario would essentially have a veto over major changes to the remainder of the confederation. Sure, maybe there are some other places in the world with such lopsided sub-national heft (the UK comes to mind, with the utterly dominant position of the English...funny how that seems to be a major irritant for the Welsh and Scottish, not to mention some of the (northern) Irish), but we are not used to this.

In Rump Canada, Alberta (and maybe Saskatchewan) would be sorely tempted to join the United States. In such a situation, these provinces, with their vast natural resources, would be very attractive to the Americans. Who is to say that these provinces (and perhaps others) could not be absorbed as nascent states into the USA? And if they go, wouldn't British Columbia also be tempted? And Manitoba?

Atlantic Canada? Separated geographically from the ROC by Quebec, would likely also be contemplating whether they would be better off joining the USA.

It is hard to imagine how we would be able to have enough of a consensus to start the process of breaking up existing provincial divisions. A Toronto Province? Ok, maybe, but would that just be the existing city of Toronto? What about the GTA? Northern Ontario? It would instantly become the poorest provincial entity in the rump Canada.

Bottom line: there is a good chance that many pieces of a rump Canada would eventually become absorbed into the United States. Maybe eventually, Ontario as well (I think it would be a "big loser" though, as the wealth of Toronto depends largely on its role as the combined New York City/Chicago/Los Angeles of the ROC...).

Would Quebec be better off on its own? Economically, it is extremely doubtful. Maybe after 30 years, maybe after 100 years, who knows? But for the short, medium, and foreseeable long term, probably not. Half a million Quebeckers (and not just Anglophones/Allophones) could leave, taking with them their wealth. Quebec's access to the rump Canadian market is not at all assured, and neither could it presume full membership in some post-separation version of NAFTA/CUSMA (and to be fair, neither could rump Canada make any such presumption). Quebec's sovereign debt (assuming that it would have to take its fair share of the Canadian federal debt) would be a weighty anchor, right at the time that Quebec would need to create all the agencies and concomitant bureaucracy now handled by the federal government.

The French language, in the short term, might in fact end up in a stronger position. But it would still face the pressures that many other regional language groups face, both inside and outside of the West. The onslaught of English will not go away, just because 250K anglos (say, roughly 40% of Quebec Anglos today) decamped to points west. A merged Canada/USA would not diminish the threats to the existing dominance of French in Quebec. Tightening up restrictions on the use of English within Quebec would just motivate more Anglos and Allos to leave an independent Quebec.

In short, Quebec would get a seat at the UN, complete control over its borders and much of its internal affairs. The French language, and the Quebecois culture might emerge stronger. Maybe. But not by much...and honestly, maybe it would even lose. The bilingual quality of Canada would disappear, and while Quebecois may not want to admit it, this bilingual aspect is without a doubt a net positive for Quebec and its culture, whether we are talking about existing minority francophone groups in Ontario and New Brunswick (very much still viable under the status quo, but in a rump Canada, who knows?), the hundreds of thousands of Anglo/Allo children in the ROC that are learning (or have learned) french (even if not becoming fluently bilingual), official bilingualism at the Canadian federal level and access to services in French in some provinces, among a great many other things. A loss of G7 status, and the geopolitical heft/relevancy in global affairs that this brings (probably also lost by a rump Canada). The loss of the Canadian passport. Internally, a great deal of acrimony among a huge number of Quebeckers that wanted to remain in Canada. Acrimony from Canadians with family/roots in Quebec, and who have a deep love for the Province and its people.

Yeah, I would be devastated by Quebec independence from Canada. So maybe you will understand why I get ticked off at foreign agent provocateurs, and the cosmopolitan dilettantes (who maybe spent a decade living in Quebec, so don't have the same skin in the game) that are pro-separation or indifferent to the fact.
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  #11583  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 6:43 PM
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High on my personal wish list for Canada is to get rid of the Canada Health Transfer and offset that with a tax point transfer to the provinces. Sure, some poorer provinces lose out in theory, but equalization would automatically increase to compensate (the formula works by comparing average provincial taxation levels to average provincial tax revenue).
It's definitely a top 5 priority in my eyes as well. The federal government should not have an excuse to grow the bureaucracy just to dole out health care transfers. Replicate bureaucracy across all levels of government does not benefit Canadians in any way.

Agreed, since equalization is not going away anytime soon, it already serves as the national re-balancing mechanism to make every province whole.
     
     
  #11584  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
...

Yeah, I would be devastated by Quebec independence from Canada. So maybe you will understand why I get ticked off at foreign agent provocateurs, and the cosmopolitan dilettantes (who maybe spent a decade living in Quebec, so don't have the same skin in the game) that are pro-separation or indifferent to the fact.
But you would be one of many who have dual citizenship, wouldn't you? Not many may have thought about it in those terms. My quick argument here is that even Canada as it is now, may have trouble coexisting next to a United States that is no longer supportive or cooperative, so what chance would it have if divided into pieces? Of course, one other possibility to consider is that the survival of the U.S. itself may also be in doubt. Not to mention that Canada is less politically divided right now than they are.
     
     
  #11585  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 7:39 PM
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The CAQ likes to post good economic news to show they're doing a great job. This was shared by a couple of CAQ Ministers I follow on social media. It doesn't originate with the CAQ, but from La Presse's chief number crunching reporter.

So basically since 2019, Quebecers' purchasing power has increased at the third-highest rate in the world. (Canada's in general also increased a lot faster than its global peers. Just a bit less than Quebec's.)

https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniq...sent-malgre-l-inflation.php?sharing=true

This is the kind of thing I have in mind when I talk about Quebec catching up and in some cases pulling ahead.

In this case, the reporter right off the bat acknowledges that he himself was surprised by these figures.
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  #11586  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 7:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
But you would be one of many who have dual citizenship, wouldn't you? Not many may have thought about it in those terms. My quick argument here is that even Canada as it is now, may have trouble coexisting next to a United States that is no longer supportive or cooperative, so what chance would it have if divided into pieces? Of course, one other possibility to consider is that the survival of the U.S. itself may also be in doubt. Not to mention that Canada is less politically divided right now than they are.
if the United States fought for its territorial integrity back in 1961, when the reasons for dissolution were (for some) much more compelling (and when the federal government had but a shadow of its current power), then it is reasonable to think that it would not easily succumb to splintering in the near future.
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  #11587  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The CAQ likes to post good economic news to show they're doing a great job. This was shared by a couple of CAQ Ministers I follow on social media. It doesn't originate with the CAQ, but from La Presse's chief number crunching reporter.

So basically since 2019, Quebecers' purchasing power has increased at the third-highest rate in the world. (Canada's in general also increased a lot faster than its global peers. Just a bit less than Quebec's.)

https://www.lapresse.ca/affaires/chroniq...sent-malgre-l-inflation.php?sharing=true

This is the kind of thing I have in mind when I talk about Quebec catching up and in some cases pulling ahead.

In this case, the reporter right off the bat acknowledges that he himself was surprised by these figures.


I thought JT was destroying Canada? Where is the liocounterargument?
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  #11588  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 7:42 PM
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I thought JT was destroying Canada?
I was just gonna say. Why aren't JT and the Liberals' comms people better at playing this stuff up? The CAQ (and even François Legault personally) do this constantly.
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  #11589  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
So maybe you will understand why I get ticked off at [...] cosmopolitan dilettantes (who maybe spent a decade living in Quebec, so don't have the same skin in the game) that are pro-separation or indifferent to the fact.
Is that Acajack? Because a more fair way to describe him would be "has lived his entire life in French Canada, still does, and might or might not vote for Quebec sovereignty if given the chance".
     
     
  #11590  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 9:48 PM
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Is that Acajack? Because a more fair way to describe him would be "has lived his entire life in French Canada, still does, and might or might not vote for Quebec sovereignty if given the chance".
of course not.
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  #11591  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 11:01 PM
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Maybe it's me because I've expressed sympathy towards the idea of Quebec independence in the past
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  #11592  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 11:48 PM
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Probably me, he gets mad at me in those terms a lot although I don't think we have ever discussed that issue.
     
     
  #11593  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2024, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Architype View Post
But you would be one of many who have dual citizenship, wouldn't you? Not many may have thought about it in those terms. My quick argument here is that even Canada as it is now, may have trouble coexisting next to a United States that is no longer supportive or cooperative, so what chance would it have if divided into pieces? Of course, one other possibility to consider is that the survival of the U.S. itself may also be in doubt. Not to mention that Canada is less politically divided right now than they are.
All true but Moncton's fear is also reasonable. Canada may be in trouble following a Quebec separatism but the Maritimes would be the most in trouble. A trade war with Quebec would leave them very isolated. Especially if we are having trouble with the United States.
     
     
  #11594  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:33 AM
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Is anyone really going to be convinced to vote Oui in a (still hypothetical) Quebec independence referendum because of New Brisavoine's posts on SSP Canada?
Exactly. That forumer is paranoid puissance 10. But with my old experience on online forums now, I let it roll of my back.

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I think it's more that many people in Canada like to comfort themselves in thinking that Quebec and its views/gripes/ambition are isolated and inward, and don't like to be reminded that there is at least some sympathy for them out there in the wider world.
It's fortunate they don't hear what most French people think then. I think I'm rather moderate and diplomatic compared to most French people regarding this subject.

(in a nutshell, the majority view here, if people are asked, is: naturally Québec should be independent; there's even a sizeable number of people who think Québec should naturally be part of France )
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  #11595  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:36 AM
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I think one should have pretty strong reasons for wanting to support the wrecking of a successful country.

French-speaking Quebecois...I can understand their motives.

But Anglos or non-francophone transplants from the ROC? Jesus, why? What do you have to gain? Why would the prospect of wrecking Canada bring you satisfaction? Maybe you have nothing to lose, but what about all those that do? How could you be so cavalier about something so serious? And please, spare me the pseudophilosophical explanations.

And should anyone be surprised if some people are vehemently opposed to the idea? There is no way that I should feel ashamed for standing up for Canada, just like I would stand up for Quebec inside of Canada, even if I don't always agree with whatever the provincial government is doing (and that applies as well to my feelings about the provincial government of whatever province I happen to be living in, which currently is Ontario, but I have also lived in British Columbia (twice) and Alberta).

As Jean Chretien once said, you don't break up a country just because somebody left his glasses at home.

So imagine you do get 50.3% Oui or whatever, on the usually nebulously-phrased question (perhaps this proportion includes a few that think they can have their cake and eat it too, e.g., Canadian dollar and Canadian passport, as if Canada is a buffet table that they can take what they want from). That leaves a huge minority of people that voted for Canada.

Brexit was a colossal mistake for the UK. Utterly asinine. People voting for whatever bilge was coming out of that fucking nitwit Nigel Farage's mouth. And well, they got "what they wanted". And now a majority thinks it was a mistake.

On the other hand, if the Oui vote comes in at 48% or whatever...that would certainly suck for those in favor of independence. Tearing families apart, just like the last two times. I remember. I was there.

And you'd have three (3!) votes in favor of Non. Would the project be shelved? Are you going to ask 10 times? And what does it mean if you should get a Oui on the tenth time? That the other 9 times don't count for squat?

And to hell with what some foreigner who has no skin in the game has to say about the subject. To put it plainly: It isn't your country.
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  #11596  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:39 AM
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I am merely reacting the way that anyone who loves their country would at some foreign interloper pushing for its destruction.

Why would anyone find this hard to understand? Why is this "funny"?
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  #11597  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Exactly. That forumer is paranoid puissance 10. But with my old experience on online forums now, I let it roll of my back.


It's fortunate they don't hear what most French people think then. I think I'm rather moderate and diplomatic compared to most French people regarding this subject.

(in a nutshell, the majority view here, if people are asked, is: naturally Québec should be independent; there's even a sizeable number of people who think Québec should naturally be part of France )
If this forum still exists at the time of the third referendum, I’ll vote Yes and it will be thanks to New Brisavoine, at least officially

(Previously, I said I was on the fence.)
     
     
  #11598  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:43 AM
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Support for sovereignty is typically at ~35-40% with Ottawa recognized as more competent than Quebec City baked in those numbers (it’s one of the best arguments against sovereignty). If the next PQ govt can actually pull off a phase of “Good Governance” while Poilievre turns out to be barely less bad than JT, I wonder what the sovereignty dynamic will be then…
I asked Grok the other day whether "le Québec deviendra-t-il un pays indépendant", and Grok made a very non-committal answer (basically: "yes it could happen, but there are many obstacles, and it's not most likely at this point in time, but it could happen"). Like duh! Tell me something I didn't know! What's the added value of AI exactly?

For fun I asked Grok whether "le Québec peut-il envahir les Etats-Unis", and Grok said that Québec invading the US seemed like a very remote scenario. (but Grok nonetheless said that in such a scenario Québec would most likely be crushed, because the US has a vastly superior military)
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  #11599  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
I think one should have pretty strong reasons for wanting to support the wrecking of a successful country.

French-speaking Quebecois...I can understand their motives.

But Anglos or non-francophone transplants from the ROC? Jesus, why? What do you have to gain? Why would the prospect of wrecking Canada bring you satisfaction? Maybe you have nothing to lose, but what about all those that do? How could you be so cavalier about something so serious? And please, spare me the pseudophilosophical explanations.

I]
Some do support higher principles like the right of legitimate peoples of the world to fully govern themselves if they so choose.
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  #11600  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2024, 12:51 AM
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The best argument is an economic disruption would be a massive shock and detangling from Canada and CUSMA would be devastating as evidenced by Brexit. Meanwhile UK was a net contributor to the central budget though Quebecers somehow don't accept that they are a big receiver from the rest of Canada that makes it even worse for Quebec as they'd also lose that revenue.
Slovakia was a net receiver in Czechoslovakia. That didn't prevent them from leaving, and it turns out they've done better than the Czech Republic since independence actually. Perhaps because when you're your own country, you need to become more serious because mom and dad are not there anymore to pay your bills.

Same for Norway, they've done better since independence from Sweden (even before discovering oil). Ireland is another case (although it took them several decades to finally outperform the rump UK).
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