Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As I said, Notre-Dame de Paris is the second-most iconic Christian building in the world, after la Basilica di San Pietro in Vaticano (Roma).

Agreed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

On a Quebec note, I always thought it was funny how many people had the idea that Notre-Dame in Montreal is somehow a "version" of Notre-Dame de Paris when it looks more like an austere (exterior only!), Scottish version of Westminster Abbey. Our Lady of Aberdeen.

To my eyes, Sainte-Anne-de-Beaupré is THE Quebec cathedral/basilica.

I find Notre-Dame de Montréal has elements of both Westminster Abbey and Notre-Dame de Paris. Both European churches have the twin towers and some similarities, but Montréal and Paris have three archways in the façade. Westminster Abbey does not.

Interestingly enough the interior of Montréal was based on the Sainte-Chapelle in Paris, and not on Notre-Dame.

And of course the architect of Notre-Dame de Montréal was an Irishman!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also, this was an occasion heavily laden in Catholic-Christian-Western-European imagery, and certain key electoral demographics for the Liberals are increasingly hostile to that stuff.

Voilà.

Still, I was quite surprised he didn't come, which is why I posted it here. I naively thought he was among the crowd of attendants (our French media only cared about Trump, Zelensky and Macron, they almost didn't show the other guests). I sort of assumed he must have been there somewhere in the crowd, given the close links between France and Canada, and between Macron and Trudeau, and how France is a special country to 20% of Canada's population, so I was quite surprised when I read that article about Legault that Trudeau didn't come.

It's also kind of ironic given how the federal authorities in Canada are usually paranoid about Québec doing its own international diplomacy independent (if I may say) of Canada. And here they leave Legault center of stage without even a representative of the federal government! Odd.

That being said, no media here have talked about Legault's presence. But that's not surprising. Québec is usually ignored, and I think it will remain the case until such day when (and "if") they become an independent country. For the French elites, as long as Québec is not independent, it doesn't really exist on the international stage (despite all the efforts by your various Québécois governments to build a foreign diplomacy).

PS: By the way, did they broadcast the reopening ceremony on TV in Québec? It was shown live (the entire ceremony) on both BBC and Sky News in the UK. In Spain the entire ceremony was shown live on their national public TV (TVE). A friend of mine in Spain watched it. In Italy and Germany, their public broadcasters didn't show it live, and I saw quite a few German and Italian people on Twitter complaining about that. (my 'non-politically-correct' take as to why they didn't broadcast it is a- the Italians were jealous, as they often are of France sadly, and b- the Germans were like Trudeau, too "Christian tradition-y" for this woke era).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Garou's rendition was great, but I really wished they invited Bruno Pelletier instead, which would bring it up to epic. I guess Garou's star is bigger in France, and Bruno isn't as well known. Even on Broadway/West End, there isn't many with that level of talent.

Bruno Pelletier - Le Temps des Cathédrales live 2020 @ Basilique Notre-Dame de Montréal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6aM6xK65GQ

I thought so too. Bruno has a more operatic voice more suitable than Garou's for that song that was featured on Saturday, in addition to being its original singer.

But of course Garou is a big star in France where Bruno hasn't done much there other than his stint in the musical Notre-Dame-de-Paris, alongside Garou. And of course, Manitoba's Daniel Lavoie as the priest!

What a fantastic show BTW. I saw the very last performance of the full original cast together at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa 20-25 years ago.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What a fantastic show BTW. I saw the very last performance of the full original cast together at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa 20-25 years ago.

I stopped watching at the end of the ceremony, I didn't watch the show after the ceremony (I watched a wonderful documentary about the Grotte Chauvet on the Franco-German channel Arte instead), but now I'm kind of repenting because everybody say the show was great.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Voilà.

Still, I was quite surprised he didn't come, which is why I posted it here. I naively thought he was among the crowd of attendants (our French media only cared about Trump, Zelensky and Macron, they almost didn't show the other guests). I sort of assumed he must have been there somewhere in the crowd, given the close links between France and Canada, and between Macron and Trudeau, and how France is a special country to 20% of Canada's population, so I was quite surprised when I read that article about Legault that Trudeau didn't come.

It's also kind of ironic given how the federal authorities in Canada are usually paranoid about Québec doing its own international diplomacy independent (if I may say) of Canada. And here they leave Legault center of stage without even a representative of the federal government! Odd.

That being said, no media here have talked about Legault's presence. But that's not surprising. Québec is usually ignored, and I think it will remain the case until such day when (and "if") they become an independent country. For the French elites, as long as Québec is not independent, it doesn't really exist on the international stage (despite all the efforts by your various Québécois governments to build a foreign diplomacy).

PS: By the way, did they broadcast the reopening ceremony on TV in Québec? It was shown live (the entire ceremony) on both BBC and Sky News in the UK. In Spain the entire ceremony was shown live on their national public TV (TVE). A friend of mine in Spain watched it. In Italy and Germany, their public broadcasters didn't show it live, and I saw quite a few German and Italian people on Twitter complaining about that. (my 'non-politically-correct' take as to why they didn't broadcast it is a- the Italians were jealous, as they often are of France sadly, and b- the Germans were like Trudeau, too "Christian tradition-y" for this woke era).

Yes. I was quite busy on Saturday so did not watch it but during the days preceding I saw several Quebec TV networks had ads saying they would be covering it live. It was also a big news story on Sunday in all our media.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I thought so too. Bruno has a more operatic voice more suitable than Garou's for that song that was featured on Saturday, in addition to being its original singer.

What a fantastic show BTW. I saw the very last performance of the full original cast together at the National Arts Centre in Ottawa 20-25 years ago.

Damn I am jelly. Wish I could take a time machine back in time to watch the full original cast. Along with Starmania, it's absolutely one of my favourite musicals, up there with the best of the best of Broadway/West-End.

Bruno singing S.O.S. and Blues du Businessman also gives me chills. His renditions are just that epic.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

Your bitterness towards Anglo-Canada is sad and pathetic.

Get a life in France, mon ami.

You have no issue criticizing others; but very thin skinned when it's the other way around. You need to get a life in Winnipeg.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I find Notre-Dame de Montréal has elements of both Westminster Abbey and Notre-Dame de Paris. Both European churches have the twin towers and some similarities, but Montréal and Paris have three archways in the façade. Westminster Abbey does not.

Interestingly enough the interior of Montréal was based on the Sainte-Chapelle in Paris, and not on Notre-Dame.

And of course the architect of Notre-Dame de Montréal was an Irishman!

I've never been a big fan of the exterior of Montreal's Notre Dame. I find the proportions of the towers and the three entrance arches to be off. Not bad, just not to my taste, I guess.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I've never been a big fan of the exterior of Montreal's Notre Dame. I find the proportions of the towers and the three entrance arches to be off. Not bad, just not to my taste, I guess.

Unfortunately Christian art wasn't all that great in the 19th century (and even worse in the 20th century), only slavishly copying styles from previous centuries, in a not very imaginative way. That's the big problem with North America which was colonized so late (unlike Latin America where they have fine religious architecture from the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries).

Unfortunately back when Canada was French, it had few inhabitants, so the churches built by the French there were not that big, and in any case French religious art was a bit dull back in those days (1650-1750), so none of the Gothic or Renaissance splendor unfortunately.

If French Canada had been very populated, with, say, 50,000 to 100,000 inh. cities, the most you'd have had back in those days would have been something like this, which was the style of French cathedrals between 1650-1750:



Or this:



There is of course one big exception, which is this, the largest French church built between 1650-1750, and quite magnificent, but it would never have been built in French Canada, even if French Canada had had 2 or 3 million inhabitants like the 13 British colonies:

[Acajack]

Look up Marie-Reine-du-Monde and Oratoire St-Joseph in Montréal, and Ste-Anne-de-Beaupré.

[Acajack]

The Oratoire is the 3rd largest dome church in the world after Rome and Yamassoukro.

[New Brisavoine]

None of these were built in the days of French Canada however.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

None of these were built in the days of French Canada however.

Nor was Notre Dame, Montreal.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

None of these were built in the days of French Canada however.

The days of French Canada?

[Acajack]

This list would probably be instructive:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_plus_vieux_%C3%A9difices_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

(Most of the oldest buildings in Canada are in Quebec.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This list would probably be instructive:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_plus_vieux_%C3%A9difices_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

(Most of the oldest buildings in Canada are in Quebec.)

Yes Lower Canada was the bulk of the population for a long time. When the oldest buildings in Quebec were built basically the only other settlers were in Nova Scotia but that site (Port Royal) doesn't have any buildings that remain.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes Lower Canada was the bulk of the population for a long time. When the oldest buildings in Quebec were built basically the only other settlers were in Nova Scotia but that site (Port Royal) doesn't have any buildings that remain.

I believe there are a few buildings in the Port Royal (now Annapolis Royal) area that remain from around 1700.

When I say a few, I mean 2 or 3.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The days of French Canada?

I think he meant pre-Conquest.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This list would probably be instructive:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_plus_vieux_%C3%A9difices_du_Qu%C3%A9bec

(Most of the oldest buildings in Canada are in Quebec.)

This complex has an eerie air or resemblance with a similar complex in Le Mans.