Can't get over how incredibly clean and bum-free Dallas is

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Yea, I lived in Albany Park for a year. Clean isn't how I'd describe it.

Would you describe it as "dirty"?

I live in Lincoln Square due east of Albany park, and I wouldn't describe where I live as "dirty" overall.


Anyway, here's Lawrence/Central Park in the very middle of Albany Park:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CrXAUphi8bCECdkE9?g_st=ac

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Would you describe it as "dirty"?

I live in Lincoln Square due east of Albany park, and I wouldn't describe where I live as "dirty" overall.


Anyway, here's Lawrence/Central Park in the very middle of Albany Park:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/CrXAUphi8bCECdkE9?g_st=ac

Kedzie was kinda gritty from what I remember.

I lived near Lawerence and Kimball though. It wasnt gross or anything.

Lincoln Square has a different demographic and more upkept.

[iheartthed]

Compared to NYC, my perception is that the sidewalks in Chicago tend to be cleaner. But NYC is the outlier here; Chicago and San Francisco seem about the same in terms of cleanliness.

[Steely Dan]

^^ AP has some extremely well-kept areas too.

Here's a side-street in "the manor":

https://maps.app.goo.gl/WJBzywCHGUvAHddH9?g_st=ac


You could very easily be forgiven for thinking that was a street in a burb like Evanston or Oak Park.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Compared to NYC, my perception is that the sidewalks in Chicago tend to be cleaner. But NYC is the outlier here; Chicago and San Francisco seem about the same in terms of cleanliness.

I haven't been to San Francisco proper since working in the area second half of 2019- but right before the pandemic SF was far cleaner than the perception. Sort of like how Chicago isn't as violent as the perception.

[streetscaper]

My experience of Chicago mirrors iheartthed.. the sidewalks were cleaner than NY's, there's less pedestrian traffic than NY too, but even considering that they were cleaner I think

[czarizard]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The "Chicago is clean" thing has always been a farce. I don't know where Chicago got this rep.

Is it referring to something else than "clean"? Chicago is very organized, Chicago has lots of flowers and greenery and the like, lots of manicured spaces but the idea that Chicago streets are unusually clean is just weird. There's dirt and crap flying around, just like anywhere else.

I think it's more of a commentary on the organized feel of the ultimate gridded metropolis, as opposed to a messier city like a Boston, NYC or LA.

Nah, it's deserved.

It has fewer homeless compared to other cities, fewer tent-cities and because of the harsh winters more of an effort to actually house homeless and not just let them freeze to death. Cost of living is lower in Chicago compared to many other cities, so it's less an issue for people struggling to afford to live or providing services to house the homeless.

It has the most alleys of any city in the world, trash pick up is mostly limited to alley ways, and trash is thrown in trash bins instead of piled on the street. Compared to LA, fewer street vendors and people selling things on the streets. Areas like MacArthur Park and Fashion District are bustling with activity, but a lot of it is directly on the street and leads to more trash.

Regular rain fall helps wash away the grime and dirt that collects. Some places, like LA, lack rain fall for a majority of the year and when it does finally rain, all the oil and debris create extra slick streets.

There's also the engineering projects like the canal built to reverse the current of the river to avoid polluting the lake and Metro Water Reclamation's TARP to prevent sewage entering the river. Paris made headlines this year over cleaning up the Seine for the Olympics, Chicago's TARP will be >1000x in capacity when it's done.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I haven't been to San Francisco proper since working in the area second half of 2019- but right before the pandemic SF was far cleaner than the perception. Sort of like how Chicago isn't as violent as the perception.

I've been since the pandemic and the cleanliness feels the same as pre-pandemic. The real before/after difference in SF are the number empty storefronts, IMO.

Manhattan went through a brief period where there seemed to be a ton of empty storefronts, but it has mostly recovered already. I didn't go to SF this year, but last year the recovery there seemed to be lagging Manhattan by a lot.

(I'm being specific about Manhattan because Brooklyn seemed to experience almost no COVID related vacancies. Manhattan bore the brunt of the havoc wreaked by COVID.)

[mhays]

LA does smell, and it's absolutely about random pee etc. sitting there for weeks. They should hose the Downtown sidewalks weekly if it's not raining.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by mhays

LA does smell, and it's absolutely about random pee etc. sitting there for weeks. They should hose the Downtown sidewalks weekly if it's not raining.

Parts of downtown Seattle didnt smell good. Just saying. And its way dirtier than most people think it is.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by czarizard

Nah, it's deserved.

It has fewer homeless compared to other cities, fewer tent-cities and because of the harsh winters more of an effort to actually house homeless and not just let them freeze to death. Cost of living is lower in Chicago compared to many other cities, so it's less an issue for people struggling to afford to live or providing services to house the homeless.

It has the most alleys of any city in the world, trash pick up is mostly limited to alley ways, and trash is thrown in trash bins instead of piled on the street. Compared to LA, fewer street vendors and people selling things on the streets. Areas like MacArthur Park and Fashion District are bustling with activity, but a lot of it is directly on the street and leads to more trash.

Regular rain fall helps wash away the grime and dirt that collects. Some places, like LA, lack rain fall for a majority of the year and when it does finally rain, all the oil and debris create extra slick streets.

There's also the engineering projects like the canal built to reverse the current of the river to avoid polluting the lake and Metro Water Reclamation's TARP to prevent sewage entering the river. Paris made headlines this year over cleaning up the Seine for the Olympics, Chicago's TARP will be >1000x in capacity when it's done.

Little homeless in Chicago isn't a flex. There's little homeless because nobody wants to die or suffer. Anyone not realizing the difference is full of it.
Most would rather not get a heat stroke in Florida or Texas either.

Theres obviously trade offs here. Yes, the weather in California can make it easier to be outside. But for the other 39 million, we're not in some bullshit weather like the rest of the country in the wnter or the summer.

I was just in DC for thanksgiving (still suffering from post covid/vacant retail everywhere) but the weather sucks ass. I couldnt stand another cold day there.
And it's not cold cold there yet either. Theres people in my company who are going to NYC next week and complaining about being in cold rain. It sucks. Everyone knows that.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

I just spent a few days this week staying in both Uptown and downtown Dallas. Also spent time around Deep Ellum. This was my second trip however so I've also been around other parts of the metro and it's pretty consistent. I'm really impressed with the fact that:

- When we drove under any highway passes, I didn't see a single tent or encampment anywhere near downtown
- The CBD streets were admittedly really quiet, but totally free of trash, litter, tents etc. Didn't feel sketchy whatsoever
- The highway medians and interchanges had just bare, seemingly manicured grass. No trash or plastic scattered about. Anywhere in urban California, there's quite a bit of litter that accumulates on the sides of roads or highways

Just some examples:
Downtown overpass



https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7861782,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9079222,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7833575,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Getting back to LA yesterday, it was hard not to notice all the litter up and down La Cienega; it's just such a stark contrast.

I'm not a huge fan of Dallas admittedly, but I've got to hand it to Texas - they keep their cities sooo much cleaner. I'm envious. Don't they have so few social services and low taxes that would lack civic cleanup? What is it they do differently?

EDIT: Sentinel reached out to me and helped me realize that parts of this post came across as super callous and dismissive towards homeless individuals, which I deeply regret. I want to apologize for that. At its core, my frustration with US cities--particularly west coast cities--stems from the widespread social disorder and the systemic issues like inadequate healthcare, affordable housing, and social inequality. I have a tendency to misdirect that frustration toward the symptoms (or the people) rather than the root causes. Thank you, Sentinel, for helping me see this. I’ll strive to do better moving forward.

Camping bans, maybe? Has homelessness been criminalized in Dallas?

Regarding social services, does the private sector play a bigger role in homeless services in Dallas, maybe? Non-profits/religious organizations?

[mhays]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Parts of downtown Seattle didnt smell good. Just saying. And its way dirtier than most people think it is.

True, but Seattle is dry for a few months vs. year-round.

[czarizard]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Little homeless in Chicago isn't a flex. There's little homeless because nobody wants to die or suffer. Anyone not realizing the difference is full of it.
Most would rather not get a heat stroke in Florida or Texas either.

Theres obviously trade offs here. Yes, the weather in California can make it easier to be outside. But for the other 39 million, we're not in some bullshit weather like the rest of the country in the wnter or the summer.

I was just in DC for thanksgiving (still suffering from post covid/vacant retail everywhere) but the weather sucks ass. I couldnt stand another cold day there.
And it's not cold cold there yet either. Theres people in my company who are going to NYC next week and complaining about being in cold rain. It sucks. Everyone knows that.

Disagree, having affordable housing and providing shelter for those without is a flex. Low cost of living and a history of public housing play a part in low homelessness, not just "the weather". Most recent example is housing the migrants through last year's winter. And if you can't afford shelter, you typically can't afford to move somewhere warmer. This article talks about a study where homelessness in California is due to cost of living and 90% are from in-state. From the study: "While participants faced many barriers, the primary barrier for all was the high cost of housing."

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by czarizard

Disagree, having affordable housing and providing shelter for those without is a flex. Low cost of living and a history of public housing play a part in low homelessness, not just "the weather". Most recent example is housing the migrants through last year's winter. And if you can't afford shelter, you typically can't afford to move somewhere warmer. This article talks about a study where homelessness in California is due to cost of living and 90% are from in-state. From the study: "While participants faced many barriers, the primary barrier for all was the high cost of housing."

First off, that study is complete bullshit. They didn't verify anything. They went up to people on the street (who couldve been high/mentally ill) and asked if they were from California.
No proof, just someone's word. Someone in a bad state of mind isn't going to give a honest answer. YOU KNOW THIS. They might not even know what day it is, year, whatever. The people doing the study know that and asked that bullshit anyway.

The weather plays a huge role. Chicago never has to worry about sheltering these people because someone being homeless would go somewhere else for surival. You yourself said that. The migrants would die. That's not true for California really. While some do, it wouldn't be the astronomical numbers Chicago would produce in a winter. Hell, a week.
That's an entirely different ball game.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Chicago never has to worry about sheltering these people because someone being homeless would go somewhere else for surival.

That's not really true.

Chicago (like most US cities) has fewer long-term homeless street people than the big west coast cities, and weather absolutely plays a role in that equation, but let's not go overboard and say things like Chicago never has to worry about sheltering homeless people and/or migrants.

This city actually does have to worry about such things, and it has in fact become one of the many political hot potatoes confronting our current mayor.

[czarizard]

Originally Posted by LA21st

First off, that study is complete bullshit. They didn't verify anything. They went up to people on the street (who couldve been high/mentally ill) and asked if they were from California.
No proof, just someone's word. Someone in a bad state of mind isn't going to give a honest answer. YOU KNOW THIS. They might not even know what day it is, year, whatever. The people doing the study know that and asked that bullshit anyway.

The weather plays a huge role. Chicago never has to worry about sheltering these people because someone being homeless would go somewhere else for surival. You yourself said that. The migrants would die. That's not true for California really. While some do, it wouldn't be the astronomical numbers Chicago would produce in a winter. Hell, a week.
That's an entirely different ball game.

Where did I say they would move elsewhere? I said that if you can't afford shelter, you typically can't afford to move either.

Migrants are an exception, in that they had no shelter and no job prospects but were bussed in from the border. Yet they came, in spite of the weather, were housed and didn't freeze to death.

What I said is Chicago is affordable and has a history of supplying and protecting housing for those that need it, because of it's winters. So low homelessness.

I looked at the methodologies used in the study, what's the issue? They had 3200 questionnaires and in-depth interviewed 365 people, even with spanish and hand-sign language translators. It seems like a solid study. Where's your proof they're in a bad state of mind, high, mentally ill, or lying? You know you can talk to them like people and they can be honest about their situation?

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

That's not really true.

Chicago (like most US cities) has fewer long-term homeless street people than the big west coast cities, and weather absolutely plays a role in that equation, but let's not go overboard and say things like Chicago never has to worry about sheltering homeless people and/or migrants.

This city actually does have to worry about such things, and it has in fact become one of the many political hot potatoes confronting our current mayor.

I shouldnt say never, as I noticed the migrants this summer myself. I saw the reports of homeless at Ohare last winter or 2023?

It doesn't have to worry like California/Oregon/Washington does, where people who don't mind living on the streets want to be in places where the weather is tolerable.

There's trade offs. Chicago (and other colder cities) are less hospitable for homeless, but it's also a detriment for most people who want to enjoy being outside.

I love being outside, and if I have to see more homeless for 65-75 degrees in the fall and winter, its ok to me.

And for those who dont know, most people in California aren't around a bunch of homeless everywhere like destroycreate likes to pretend.
Most people in CA live in comfortable suburbs that have a few random homeless.
Parts of SF, LA, SD have bigger concentrations, but its not in your face in most places. The narrative is so stupid.

[pip]

Chicago is super clean for such a large city. Every out of town friend who visits makes that comment and when I am back there I do notice how clean it is - even the alleys.

Regarding homeless, Chicago had less than a much smaller city such as Boston of which homeless isn't really a major issue as compared to other cities - but for Chicago this was pre migrant.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats because in texas there are no social services of note so no point in living in the city the homeless live out below the overpass

of course thats a generalization, but thats my experience of it

and i like dallas fine as it is

You haven't been to Austin. It has been ruined by homeless encampments and associated piles of garbage, needles, tents, etc.. Graffiti is also a huge problem there. You can live in neighborhoods with property values of 1-2M and be only blocks from the mess. The worst was about 5 years ago, but it's still bad. When I left last year, there were still problems with fires under the underpasses. As much as I don't much care for suburban life, my current home of Cypress (Houston suburb) is free of homeless, litter, and graffiti. Cleanest environment I've ever experienced in a fairly large suburb (250,000). There are some areas on the fringes that aren't great, but nowhere near what I experienced in Austin. Austin and Portland used to be incredibly nice, but no more.

Edit: No need to claim Austinites are tolerant of homelessness. They're not. They're angry and people (like me) are glad they left. Businesses and neighborhoods are constantly complaining about the problems near to them. The "leaders" are trying with various approaches, but are overwhelmed by the sheer numbers and haven't been successful.