Can't get over how incredibly clean and bum-free Dallas is

[destroycreate]

I just spent a few days this week staying in both Uptown and downtown Dallas. Also spent time around Deep Ellum. This was my second trip however so I've also been around other parts of the metro and it's pretty consistent. I'm really impressed with the fact that:

- When we drove under any highway passes, I didn't see a single tent or encampment anywhere near downtown
- The CBD streets were admittedly really quiet, but totally free of trash, litter, tents etc. Didn't feel sketchy whatsoever
- The highway medians and interchanges had just bare, seemingly manicured grass. No trash or plastic scattered about. Anywhere in urban California, there's quite a bit of litter that accumulates on the sides of roads or highways

Just some examples:
Downtown overpass



https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7861782,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9079222,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7833575,..._ep=EgoyMDI0MTIwMy4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Getting back to LA yesterday, it was hard not to notice all the litter up and down La Cienega; it's just such a stark contrast.

I'm not a huge fan of Dallas admittedly, but I've got to hand it to Texas - they keep their cities sooo much cleaner. I'm envious. Don't they have so few social services and low taxes that would lack civic cleanup? What is it they do differently?

EDIT: Sentinel reached out to me and helped me realize that parts of this post came across as super callous and dismissive towards homeless individuals, which I deeply regret. I want to apologize for that. At its core, my frustration with US cities--particularly west coast cities--stems from the widespread social disorder and the systemic issues like inadequate healthcare, affordable housing, and social inequality. I have a tendency to misdirect that frustration toward the symptoms (or the people) rather than the root causes. Thank you, Sentinel, for helping me see this. I’ll strive to do better moving forward.

[iheartthed]

Dallas: even the bums don't want to be there.

[sentinel]

Delete.

[Crawford]

Dallas might have one of the worst public spheres of any metro of its size in the developed world.

Maybe you didn't see bums or people littering bc there aren't really pedestrians? I'm sure there are homeless and litterbugs just like anywhere else in the U.S.

[mhays]

I don't give Dallas much credit in the "real city" department. But cracking down on little and street disorder are certainly worth celebrating. Any tent ought to be in a shelter instead.

[Centropolis]

Not sure why anyone would criticize this simple observation at first glance regardless of political positions and the root cause for the presence or or lack of homelessness and litter. I've been taken aback about how far the homeless encampments and trash have spread around California and Portland. I have a pretty good memory of how the west coast has changed compared to circa 2010.

I've made a similar observation regarding how clean Chicago is compared to my own city, and west coast cities. At least until late winter/early spring...and the script flips for a while and the city is pretty gritty and full of litter and torn up street infrastructure. But, anyway...

[mrnyc]

thats because in texas there are no social services of note so no point in living in the city the homeless live out below the overpass

of course thats a generalization, but thats my experience of it

and i like dallas fine as it is

[Crawford]

The "Chicago is clean" thing has always been a farce. I don't know where Chicago got this rep.

Is it referring to something else than "clean"? Chicago is very organized, Chicago has lots of flowers and greenery and the like, lots of manicured spaces but the idea that Chicago streets are unusually clean is just weird. There's dirt and crap flying around, just like anywhere else.

I think it's more of a commentary on the organized feel of the ultimate gridded metropolis, as opposed to a messier city like a Boston, NYC or LA.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats because in texas there are no social services of note so no point in living in the city the homeless live out below the overpass

of course thats a generalization, but thats my experience of it

and i like dallas fine as it is

Previously I would've thought because they have so few resources, you'd see far more of it to be honest.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats because in texas there are no social services of note so no point in living in the city the homeless live out below the overpass

of course thats a generalization, but thats my experience of it

and i like dallas fine as it is

Historically cities have "shipped" people to the west (Denver for instance) or west coast or other cities within a metro area (suburban cops taking people downtown) or larger region (Dallas to Austin for instance) to lesson their own burden. Not sure if that is what Dallas is currently doing, but I think its OK to point out things like cleanliness and lack of encampments during an era in which the public realm is degrading in certain ways/areas.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The "Chicago is clean" thing has always been a farce. I don't know where Chicago got this rep.

Is it referring to something else than "clean"? Chicago is very organized, Chicago has lots of flowers and greenery and the like, lots of manicured spaces but the idea that Chicago streets are unusually clean is just weird. There's dirt and crap flying around, just like anywhere else.

I think it's more of a commentary on the organized feel of the ultimate gridded metropolis, as opposed to a messier city like a Boston, NYC or LA.

Anecdotal but the public realm in general feels more organized and clean than in a lot of other cities. The sidewalks and landscaping feel more manicured and maintained even in vast swaths of areas that many people consider undesirable. The air quality even seems noticeably better than say St. Louis or Pittsburgh - at least away from the southern and southeastern tier of the metro.

Everything looks like shit after new years into spring though. And, there are large areas of Chicago where the streets are absolute hell.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats because in texas there are no social services of note so no point in living in the city the homeless live out below the overpass

of course thats a generalization, but thats my experience of it

and i like dallas fine as it is

Yeah, I've seen the tents below the overpasses in multiple sunbelt cities. But, I've also seen it in places like Sonoma County. Probably some degree of harassment as well in places like Texas or outside of major cities in California when people set up encampments in denser areas or CBDs.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

I've been taken aback about how far the homeless encampments and trash have spread around California and Portland. I have a pretty good memory of how the west coast has changed compared to circa 2010.

If we're talking about tent cities, at this point we can safely say that the homeless camps are a thing unique to the west coast, at least within the United States. If we're talking about the presence of bums... I can honestly say that I can't name a great city that does not have some type of bum presence. I've seen bums and homeless people from Tokyo to Paris to Istanbul to Rio de Janeiro. So called "bums" are a fact of life in the world's great cities, and absence of them probably means that the city isn't one of the world's great cities.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If we're talking about tent cities, at this point we can safely say that the homeless camps are a thing unique to the west coast, at least within the United States.

Well, not safely. The scale may be different, but they are everywhere, now. This is St. Louis - they pop up all the time and are squashed - but they come back:

NPR.com

KSDK.com

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

Well, not safely. The scale may be different, but they are everywhere, now. This is St. Louis - they pop up all the time and are squashed - but they come back:

Interesting. I haven't been to StL in recent years so I'll defer to you on that. I've seen tents sporadically in other cities, but nothing like the tent cities on the west coast. Every once in a while you'll see a tent on a sidewalk in NYC, and you might even see the same tent in a place for an extended period of time, but I've never seen a full blown, semi-permanent tent city.

A few months ago people (maybe migrants?) tried to set up a tent city on the Manhattan Bridge. I'm pretty sure it was gone the same day it hit social media. But NYC also has a shelter law that entitles anyone in need to be offered housing.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Interesting. I haven't been to StL in recent years so I'll defer to you on that. I've seen tents sporadically in other cities, but nothing like the tent cities on the west coast. Every once in a while you'll see a tent on a sidewalk in NYC, and you might even see the same tent in a place for an extended period of time, but I've never seen a full blown, semi-permanent tent city.

A few months ago people (maybe migrants?) tried to set up a tent city on the Manhattan Bridge. I'm pretty sure it was gone the same day it hit social media. But NYC also has a shelter law that entitles anyone in need to be offered housing.

I haven't been to metropolitan NYC since before the pandemic and even longer since I have been outside of Manhattan, but I suspect there are "tent cities" in jurisdictions (Jersey?) or areas out of sight. Dunno.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The "Chicago is clean" thing has always been a farce. I don't know where Chicago got this rep.

Is it referring to something else than "clean"? Chicago is very organized, Chicago has lots of flowers and greenery and the like, lots of manicured spaces but the idea that Chicago streets are unusually clean is just weird. There's dirt and crap flying around, just like anywhere else.

I think it's more of a commentary on the organized feel of the ultimate gridded metropolis, as opposed to a messier city like a Boston, NYC or LA.

I think a good deal of the "Chicago is pretty clean for a big city" reputation stems from the fact that damn near every single block in the whole city is bisected by a service alley, creating one of the most thorough "front of house"/"back of house" built environments anywhere.

So it's not that Chicago isn't "dirty" (alleys here are typically pretty fucking grungy), it's just that back in the 19th century the city decided to dedicate an entire secondary street system to "hide" the urban filth a little bit better.

Every single Chicagoan who visits NYC for the first time always comes back home and says something to the effect of "and you wouldn't believe it, New Yorkers just put their garbage right out on the sidewalk in front of their buildings! It's unreal".

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I think a good deal of the "Chicago is pretty clean for a big city" reputation stems from the fact that damn near every single block in the whole city is bisected by a service alley, creating one of the most thorough "front of house"/"back of house" built environments anywhere.

So it's not that Chicago isn't "dirty" (alleys here are typically pretty fucking grungy), it's just that back in the 19th century the city decided to dedicate an entire secondary street system to "hide" the urban filth a little bit better.

Every single Chicagoan who visits NYC for the first time always comes back home and says something to the effect of "and you wouldn't believe it, New Yorkers just put their garbage right out on the sidewalk in front of their buildings! It's unreal".

The streetscape is also far more uniform and "clean" looking in Chicago than it is in St. Louis, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, etc if we are to compare it to midland cities with alleys...in St. Louis City my tree lawns were always tiny and the grass destroyed during hot summers. The setbacks and massing are all over the place in those three "river cities" and the grids are insane.

[LA21st]

Yawn. Dallas has way more crime and violence than LA. So there's that.
I'd call more crime and violence as worse off.

Much of south dallas looks pretty undeveloped for a major city and its like half the damn city area.
Did you venture into those areas at all?? Doubt
Going off google maps, some of those areas like Mississipi or something. No sidewalks, few businesses.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The "Chicago is clean" thing has always been a farce. I don't know where Chicago got this rep.

Is it referring to something else than "clean"? Chicago is very organized, Chicago has lots of flowers and greenery and the like, lots of manicured spaces but the idea that Chicago streets are unusually clean is just weird. There's dirt and crap flying around, just like anywhere else.

I think it's more of a commentary on the organized feel of the ultimate gridded metropolis, as opposed to a messier city like a Boston, NYC or LA.

Yea, I lived in Albany Park for a year. Clean isn't how I'd describe it.
But as you said, more pedestrian areas create more trash I guess and most of Dallas looks like Schaumburg and like a small town in the south.
Nobodys walking around this shit.