Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

- snip -

Sounds like what we've got right now with the WCE... which is currently at four-digit ridership and struggling to get back to its pre-pandemic five. We don't even know what priority CN is contractually obligated to provide for a commuter train to Whistler, so it might be stuck with the WCE's long delays too.

Perhaps a couple of elections from now when TransLink's not in the red - otherwise it seems impractical to dump yet another high-cost, low-demand line on them. Even then, formal studies usually prove that a bus option gets the same passenger count for less money (and less inflexible schedules).

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

man you guys are obsessed with rail transit that benefits almost nobody...

the WCE is pointless at this point basically. the costs vs how many it benefits is abysmal. it wouldnt exist post-pandemic if it wasnt a legacy from the 1990s when more people commuted downtown before other cities started to get bigger.

even just keeping it running today is getting harder to justify. and people want to add more to what is pretty much just a resort town?

[madog222]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Outbound, leaving North Van
7am
11am
3pm

Inbound, leaving Whistler
9am
1PM
5PM

I think the bigger initial need is is for commuter service into Vancouver, atleast from Squamish.

[mattropolis]

The west coast express is not pointless. Have you ever been on it? Why do some people incessantly post in the Heavy Rail Commuter and Intercity thread if they are so anti-rail? Do you think if you replace the WCE with a slow bus that gets stuck in traffic will make people who currently ride the train go on the bus, and not drive?

I like twoNeurons idea of starting with two trains for the Sea to Sky railway.
Currently CN runs one train in each direction between Squamish and North Vancouver, usually at night so a daytime passenger train will not be an issue.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

man you guys are obsessed with rail transit that benefits almost nobody...

the WCE is pointless at this point basically. the costs vs how many it benefits is abysmal. it wouldnt exist post-pandemic if it wasnt a legacy from the 1990s when more people commuted downtown before other cities started to get bigger...

Ikea effect, I guess. FWIW the NDP promised to look at expanding the line to the Valley; we'll see whether or not it pays off.

Originally Posted by mattropolis

The west coast express is not pointless. Have you ever been on it? Why do some people incessantly post in the Heavy Rail Commuter and Intercity thread if they are so anti-rail? Do you think if you replace the WCE with a slow bus that gets stuck in traffic will make people who currently ride the train go on the bus, and not drive?

Bus lanes: problem solved. The R3 already goes as fast as the WCE, and shows up much more often.

It's the Intercity thread - some of us want to move the most people from City A to City B for the best use of resources, not just have a lot of trains.
I accept that waking up at the crack of dawn to get downtown in an hour is more convenient for you and 5,299 others. By the same token, you have to accept that 3,010 other passengers would rather take the R3 and SkyTrain any time of the day for not much more travel time (not counting the 26-29,000+ passengers already on the Evergreen Line)... and the latter combination is much easier to upgrade and operate.

Originally Posted by mattropolis

I like twoNeurons idea of starting with two trains for the Sea to Sky railway.
Currently CN runs one train in each direction between Squamish and North Vancouver, usually at night so a daytime passenger train will not be an issue.

If those two trains will generate 10k/day and up, by all means; otherwise, TransLink is having a hard time getting people to ride the commuter rail they already have. And there's always the chance that CN adds more trains, if only to spite passenger service.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sounds like what we've got right now with the WCE... which is currently at four-digit ridership and struggling to get back to its pre-pandemic five. We don't even know what priority CN is contractually obligated to provide for a commuter train to Whistler, so it might be stuck with the WCE's long delays too.

Perhaps a couple of elections from now when TransLink's not in the red - otherwise it seems impractical to dump yet another high-cost, low-demand line on them. Even then, formal studies usually prove that a bus option gets the same passenger count for less money (and less inflexible schedules).

I get it, I do... but it's also an underutilized rail line on a section of road that is only getting busier. A train on this line would run unimpeded by traffic. Trust me, there are actually plenty of buses that to go Whistler now... from both the airport and downtown.

They cost $30–40. and there's pretty much a bus every 45 minutes, so it's not like there's no demand for service to these places. A train would be less convenient for tourists, but I can see something like DMU running the line and charging $10–12 to Squamish, $18–22 for Whistler. AT 260km round trip, that's like ½ a tank of gas for me. Cheaper to take a train than drive... especially if I'm paying for parking. Or having the family go up a day early for a ski trip and I join them after work, taking the train there.

BTW, I'm not against buses for this route, but I DO think that there is a reliability advantage with the train.

I also think it would be a HIT with tourists... I can't tell you how many times I've talked to people who rent a car to go up to Whistler. There IS a downside, though... and that is the station location. Unfortunately, the station in Whistler is closer to Creekside than Whistler Village... so you WOULD need a shuttle service of some sort... but I'm sure you could have the hotels provide a free shuttle service that takes people from the station through the town's sites.

[scryer]

I think that a couple of things can be true at the same time here.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

the WCE is pointless at this point basically. the costs vs how many it benefits is abysmal. it wouldnt exist post-pandemic if it wasnt a legacy from the 1990s when more people commuted downtown before other cities started to get bigger.

even just keeping it running today is getting harder to justify. and people want to add more to what is pretty much just a resort town?

I agree. But I think that there can be more to salvage from the system to benefit the future rather than nixing the system entirely because it's inconvenient right now.

A good example of this, and I hate to make the comparison because the conversation can go off the rails so to speak (pun intended), is Toronto's streetcar system. Even though I am comparing apples to oranges, the city decided to keep their 100+ year streetcar system and invested the time and money to give it proper purpose. I do think that the same sentiment can be applied to the WCE. Asking what an ideal WCE system would look like, how to fund it, and what to do with it right now are all viable questions before giving it the axe.

The WCE needs a facelift and a vision badly. And this is something worth doing a case study over as much as I hate those.

Also, as a side note, the municipalities that have WCE stations need to ramp up their TOD (read: density) and I think that a lot are reluctant to do so because the WCE lacks a strategic vision.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

It's the Intercity thread - some of us want to move the most people from City A to City B for the best use of resources, not just have a lot of trains.
I accept that waking up at the crack of dawn to get downtown in an hour is more convenient for you and 5,299 others. By the same token, you have to accept that 3,010 other passengers would rather take the R3 and SkyTrain any time of the day for not much more travel time (not counting the 26-29,000+ passengers already on the Evergreen Line)... and the latter combination is much easier to upgrade and operate.

I do think that if the WCE were to be nixed that a good tradeoff would be to extend the Millennium line eastwards to POCO sooner rather than later. After all it is a consideration for part of the regional transit vision going forward.

The only problem with prioritizing this extension would be slowly obsoleting the WCE for trains that run more frequently which I would say is already happening. With that said, if phasing out the WCE is a part of the regional plan then the region needs to plan for it. Or the region needs to plan for how WCE integrates into the system in the future.

And yes, I do think that the direct connection to Waterfront station is a very important part of making the WCE a desirable option.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

- snip -

Right, it depends on implementation and actual demand. It would definitely beat driving all the way up the S-to-S or sitting in a Greyhound.

BUT it's not the same "build it and they will come" as the SkyTrain. Even Ontario's commuter train numbers are pretty lame - and BC's are bound to be lower - so if the study comes back and it turns out the cost/benefit —, I say wait for Squamish and the North Shore to densify further and kick it back another decade.

Plus we need at least SkyTrain to Lonsdale first. Otherwise the options to get in or out of Vancouver are limited.

Originally Posted by scryer

- snip -

The thing is... upgrade how? The problem with expanding the WCE is that A) the busiest section is Waterfront-Coquitlam, and that's the one part that's maxed out, B) the expandable part, Coquitlam-Mission, has almost no demand, and C) most potential riders between Mission-Chilliwack wants to go to Surrey or Langley, and not via a long, meandering relic from the 19th century.

The province could conceivably extend it to Abbotsford for low cost and low reward, but anything that will actually make a dent in commuting habits is likely going to need a brand new grade-separated alignment which'll have to fight our other grade-separated projects for funding.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The thing is... upgrade how? The problem with expanding the WCE is that A) the busiest section is Waterfront-Coquitlam, and that's the one part that's maxed out, B) the expandable part, Coquitlam-Mission, has almost no demand, and C) most potential riders between Mission-Chilliwack wants to go to Surrey or Langley, and not via a long, meandering relic from the 19th century.

Maybe I miscommunicated my post but the point I was trying to get across is that it is worth studying the hell out of and even projecting 100 years into the future to see if the WCE serves the regional vision. Whether that makes the WCE viable or not, will be determined by this theoretical study.

I do think that having a foresighted study is worth the investment because there are countless examples of cities that have ripped up systems only to regret it later (and yes I realize this is still an apples to oranges comparison here...). IMO it is better to be absolutely sure that shutting down the WCE is the best option for the future.

And tbh, I kind of lean towards this choice only because of the future of the Skytrain getting extended eastwards (in the distant future).

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The province could conceivably extend it to Abbotsford for low cost and low reward, but anything that will actually make a dent in commuting habits is likely going to need a brand new grade-separated alignment which'll have to fight our other grade-separated projects for funding.

I, in no way, shape or form, think that anything WCE related will take priority over other transit projects in the next 25 years.

But the Lower Mainland is unclear about what the future of the WCE is and I think the lack of a long vision for the WCE is what's frustrating. And tbf, the WCE in its current state is not easy to work with.

[casper]

Originally Posted by scryer

Maybe I miscommunicated my post but the point I was trying to get across is that it is worth studying the hell out of and even projecting 100 years into the future to see if the WCE serves the regional vision. Whether that makes the WCE viable or not, will be determined by this theoretical study.

I do think that having a foresighted study is worth the investment because there are countless examples of cities that have ripped up systems only to regret it later (and yes I realize this is still an apples to oranges comparison here...). IMO it is better to be absolutely sure that shutting down the WCE is the best option for the future.

And tbh, I kind of lean towards this choice only because of the future of the Skytrain getting extended eastwards (in the distant future).




I, in no way, shape or form, think that anything WCE related will take priority over other transit projects in the next 25 years.

But the Lower Mainland is unclear about what the future of the WCE is and I think the lack of a long vision for the WCE is what's frustrating. And tbf, the WCE in its current state is not easy to work with.

The WCE is operational. The cost of buying trains and setting it up is a sunk cost. If it did not exist today, it may be difficult to justify creating it. However that is an academic question at this point, the money is spent the trains and stations are there.

The question is now that we have it, what do we do with it.

Having one of two trains a day that are extended to Chilliwack is an interesting idea. That lets us see if we can stimulate growth on the existing WCE and see how consumers respond in Abbotsford and Chilliwack. It already has a connection in Coquitlam to skytrain so passengers from Chilliwack not heading downtown do have a more convent transfer point. Maybe that means Mission is going to lose one train a day.

I would much rather see some modest extension of the existing WCE (even if once a day) to gage demand than going a rebuilding the old BC Rail line or a completely new line.

[logicbomb]

Not that it was going to ever to be used again but the Snaw-naw-as nation have already removed a few hundred metres of rail from their portion of the E&N rail corridor. There's already a dozen claims in the wing with the Halalt potentially being the next group to get the lands within the E&N corridor returned to them.

It's too bad because it would have been nice to preserve the corridor as a trail and a transit corridor for the future (50+ years from now). Remediation of these lands are going to be very costly (billions)....

[Migrant_Coconut]

LBH, the E&N was never going to be saved in its entirety - not as a railway, at least - without actually being used again, and it was never going to be used again unless Nanaimo, Victoria, et al were at least twice as big and dense as they are now. Several companies have already tried and failed; might as well give it back.

That said, the province could likely renegotiate with the band to keep it open as a trail (rather than Crown property splitting the nation in two). And if they ever want to restart Langford-Victoria service, they can always negotiate to go underneath it.

[Sheba]

Just saw a sound bite on this and didn't recognize it as something we've debated on here - Mountain Valley Express

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Just saw a sound bite on this and didn't recognize it as something we've debated on here - Mountain Valley Express

It was about 4 years ago on this thread:

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

From Vancouver Urbanized:

The group proposing this line is "Mountain Valley Express" and they estimate construction costs to be between 7 and 16 billion dollars. The group acknowledges that extensive engineering analysis would be required to stabilize cost estimates. Their emphasis is on the costs savings between this line and an equivalent expansion of highway capacity.

Their estimates include a travel time of four minutes from Horseshoe Bay to North Vancouver. Whether they've factored in the political cost of proposing that infrastructure capable of supporting this being built across West Vancouver remains to be seen.

It has evolved since then though.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by mcj

It was about 4 years ago on this thread:

It has evolved since then though.

But it hasn't become any more credible - if anything it's worse. They insist on using ridiculously low cost estimates because infrastructure shouldn't cost as much as it does. It's magical thinking, unless they can explain how it can be built cheaply.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Do they even have an official business case this time? All they have to do is pull hypothetical best-case scenarios out of their asses and into a PDF like the Island Corridor Foundation did.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

why not just build SkyTrain out to Whistler and run them at 110km/hr. treat it like an express.

there. problem solved! haha.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

why not just build SkyTrain out to Whistler and run them at 110km/hr. treat it like an express.

there. problem solved! haha.

or just a drill a 100km long tunnel from north van to whistler. It's so easy! If it's easy in SimCity, sure it's easy in real life too!

[Migrant_Coconut]

It could be if we had Ontario's budget (and their share of Ottawa's blank cheques)... but we do not.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

or just a drill a 100km long tunnel from north van to whistler. It's so easy! If it's easy in SimCity, sure it's easy in real life too!

Pah! You guys have no imagination!

We should just install tubes! Tuuuuuubes!