Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Vin]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

Another option is to build a new passenger only rail bridge to the east. It would eliminate having to move the station and to have a reverse move

I love this idea, and that makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, I'm glad the proposition to extend the WCE from Mission to Abbotsford to Chilliwack has been put forward even though we are all aware that election promises are just words. Actions will only be put forward for those with integrity.

BC NDP promise to build UBC SkyTrain, rail service to Fraser Valley and Whistler
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bc-ndp-transportation-platform-skytrain-commuter-rail

I can see how desperate the NDP is at this point, since they are also attacking the Conservatives and mud-slinging them over so many issues.

This is a Yay for me:

BC Conservatives leading in new survey one week before election
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bc-conservatives-mainstreet-research-survey-october-10-2024

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by RedArbutus

Your daily reminder that Kenneth Chan is a hack

I think that's a little bit harsh, he clearly puts in the legwork sometimes to FOI request information like this.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I think that's a little bit harsh, he clearly puts in the legwork sometimes to FOI request information like this.

You're right, it's not entirely kind of me. I'm just salty w/ DH (and particularly Ken's) fawning coverage of Ken Sim and ABC during the last election, and Kenneth is also one of the writers whose articles consistently do not link out to any source whatsoever. I'm not sure if that's an editorial decision for all of their "Urbanized" section but many other of their categories do regularly feature link referrals to other websites, and the omission in Kenneth's articles is glaring.

[Migrant_Coconut]

In this particular case, an FOI request implies that it's still unavailable to the public. There's plenty of other publicly-available studies he never links to which you can lynch him on, though...

WRT the NDP promise, I sincerely hope they just extend the WCE to Abbotsford and call it a day - reviving the interurban is a waste of everybody's attention span and has been for the last two decades.

[WarrenC12]

You want DH's source? It's probably a reddit post.

[zahav]

I got stuck in a weird internet hole this morning, and it was kind of a big find for me, so let me nerd out for a few mins...

I came upon a post or photo of the defunct Great Northern Railway, and realized I kinda heard of it but didn't know much about it, or even where it was from. Turns out it's an historic American line, whose mainline was from St. Paul MN to Seattle. But apparently it was very much like the CPR for the Prairies, and was known as the train that brought settlers to the Northern US states (Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana, Idaho, and finally Washington). Then and even today, this is an oft overlooked US region (while "Northern US" is not even a region at all, it contains states that individually get lumped into other regions. But other than Minnesota and Washington (literally the bookends of the northern border) the in between states are some of the smallest population wise, least densely settled, and least discussed in all of the US. But anyways, the Great Northern Railway was very much a frontier line, and was instrumental to these states existence/development, as were all railways in the new lands they crossed.

Then I read that they had a branch line into Vancouver, the railway's only trackage outside of the US. But not only that, they built some of the most trafficked and crucial rail lines up until today. They built the line from the US border, through White Rock and Mud Bay, up Delta to north Surrey, across to New West, through Burnaby, Vancouver, and created a terminus at the False Creek Flats (they were the ones who filled in the creek first, so they could build their station). And that is the Pacific Central Station. And where did they get the fill to reclaim the land in eastern False Creek? From digging the Grandview Cut through Vancouver! They used the rock and earth removed from digging the Cut and used it to fill in the inlet. I was shocked they were behind that massive undertaking! Pacific Central itself and the creation of one of the primary freight lines through Metro Van to this day, was all done by a US railway! I thought maybe it was a CN, and Pac Central was their equivalent to CP's Waterfront Station. But nope, all built by a US railway. They also were responsible for the route to what is now the Roberts Bank super port, originally a service between Cloverdale and Port Guichon (now Ladner). Little did they know that fast forward to today, and their lines would be some of the most critical rail corridors in all of Canada. And yet for Great Northern, these were minuscule spur lines and insignificant for such a grand railway that was building much of the "American Story" and settling the wild with Europeans. Yet their minor spurs laid the groundwork for a critical part of our modern economy, and shaped many lower mainland cities.

I just never knew all of this was courtesy of a foreign line lol, was this one of the earliest examples of Vancouver being more respected and connected with American states of the Pacific and mountain regions, than we were with the East? It's a recurring theme for BC and Vancouver especially, more like PNW etc. etc., and reflected by many of our ties north/south vs. east/west. The fact that an American company developed all of this here an nowhere else in Canada? I wouldn't be surprised if both CP and CN were asleep at the switch, they weren't doing anything major here. Just look at recent history. In 2003 BC Rail was sold by the government to CN, drastically increasing CN's footprint here (never mind the endless scandals and political fallout, that's another story). But BC Rail was very successful, and really helped fuel resource booms in BC, and a major part of the growth at the Port Of Vancouver. CN and CP could have built up more here all through the decades, but they didn't, and local companies and/or US companies filled the void. Very much shades of contemporary times, when western alienation and dissatisfaction with the (perception of) the East ignoring us are still important issues in BC (although less so now than in the 80s/90s period). US west coast companies are seen as much more influential and important here than Canadian Eastern entities, not based on stats but just perception.
CN came in and swooped it up, finally giving it some heft in our market.

Lastly, at the end of this research, I learned the Great Northern Railway was sold/amalgamated starting in the 70s, and is now BNSF! I always knew BNSF was active in the lower mainland, I see their trains and sign etc., but never knew the history of why they are here, etc. But now I have my explanation, makes total sense! Such a cool discovery for a geek like me, makes me want to take the Amtrak Cascades because it travels along historic BNSF trackage all the way to America, makes total sense now! Correct me please if I'm wrong, I have not researched this extensively, but is Vancouver the only Canadian city that owes such an extensive part of its rail history and present to enties other than CP and CN?

[Changing City]

/\

That's not completely accurate. The Pacific Central Station building that's still standing was the terminus for the Canadian Northern Railway in Vancouver, and was built a couple of years after the Great Northern station, which was known as Union Station, and is where the new St Paul's Hospital is under construction. Canadian Northern and Canadian National merged in 1923, when the existing station became the CN terminus.

J J Hill, who ran the Great Northern Railway was a Canadian, but ended up in the US running his railway there, although it extended north into Manitoba. He was originally part of the syndicate that built the Canadian Pacific Railway, and initially thought it should take an easier route through the US. Eventually he left the CPR board before the line was completed. More details here.




Photo source History Museum of Hood River County on the Changing Vancouver blog.

[jollyburger]

There's a thesis from 1953 about False Creek development from a UBC student with more background.

https://open.library.ubc.ca/soa/cIRcle/collections/ubctheses/831/items/1.0106692

Around page 84 it mentions land reclamation. They said they dredged 4.3 million cubic yards of material for fill on the eastern part of False Creek (Granville Island was also from dredged material)

One of the dredges

https://oppositethecity.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/dredge-king-edward-vii/

False Creek Statement of Significance in 2013

Work did not begin on filling the False Creek flats until 1915, when official permission was given to the CNoR. The same year, the first Georgia Viaduct was constructed, consisting of a singlebridge structure travelling along the Georgia Street axis from Main Street to the escarpment near Beatty Street. The flats were filled with a variety of materials, including: landfill removed from development projects in other parts of the city; scrap lumber and bricks from the surrounding mills; and general industrial waste.

[zahav]

Awesome thank you for sharing this! I got caught up in the new information and certainly didn't do a thoroughly exhaustive look, so thank you for correcting those points! And I'm sure there's loads more information on their operations and others across Canada, so definitely don't want to misrepresent myself as an expert with fully verified data. But even so, my point still stands that this railway made a definite mark on the region and its transportation network, and continues to do so with BNSF operations (not to mention being responsible for the Grandview Cut, which allowed the Expo Line to be built all those decades later). I know I was being a troll bringing up any lack of commitment from CP/CN and fitting into the bigger western alienation mentality, I was exaggerating. Just found it interesting that this American company had such a long history here, and created important and long lasting rail networks within a relatively small mileage of track.

But the BC Rail comments were totally justified, they really were a huge player in the province, being the primary north-south line. So it serviced the Port of Vancouver terminals on the North Shore, to Whistler and beyond into the Cariboo, Prince George, and multiple lines in Northern/NE BC ie. Tumbler Ridge, Fort St John, etc. Lots of natural resources depended on BC Rail, so CN scored big time by snatching their routes up (on lease technically, but in practice they control it). And evidently not as well liked as BC Rail was in these northern communities, and the safety incidents don't help. They are like Woodwards or A&B Sound, former local companies that have a rose coloured nostalgia in the province, BC Rail is that for many people in the corridor north from Vancouver, CN is an outsider who doesn't care, is their thought. Like most things, the furor died down after the first few years, and now it's almost a distant memory for many. According to Wikipedia, BC Rail was the 3rd largest railway (by tonnage) before it was merged into CN. So not insignificant. And I think CN has been investing more since the early days of the merger, and seen more as a part of the economies and communities they serve. But not entirely forgotten lol, there's always gonna be some with a grudge. Their lease is full of caveats and hidden details, but basically CN will be operating it forever. Sad.

[Dave2]

A postcard showing both the Great Northern (Union) Station, and Pacific Central (CN) station.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Needs to be double tracked.

Same with the bridge in New Westminster, which is almost as old as the Mission Bridge.

The New Westminster Bridge is actually older. Opened in 1904, the Mission Railway Bridge opened in 1909!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by zahav

But the BC Rail comments were totally justified, they really were a huge player in the province, being the primary north-south line. So it serviced the Port of Vancouver terminals on the North Shore, to Whistler and beyond into the Cariboo, Prince George, and multiple lines in Northern/NE BC ie. Tumbler Ridge, Fort St John, etc. Lots of natural resources depended on BC Rail, so CN scored big time by snatching their routes up (on lease technically, but in practice they control it). And evidently not as well liked as BC Rail was in these northern communities, and the safety incidents don't help. They are like Woodwards or A&B Sound, former local companies that have a rose coloured nostalgia in the province, BC Rail is that for many people in the corridor north from Vancouver, CN is an outsider who doesn't care, is their thought. Like most things, the furor died down after the first few years, and now it's almost a distant memory for many. According to Wikipedia, BC Rail was the 3rd largest railway (by tonnage) before it was merged into CN. So not insignificant. And I think CN has been investing more since the early days of the merger, and seen more as a part of the economies and communities they serve. But not entirely forgotten lol, there's always gonna be some with a grudge. Their lease is full of caveats and hidden details, but basically CN will be operating it forever. Sad.

Oh there's definitely bitterness in the BC Rail fiasco. That was some prime trackage which I can almost guarantee would have had some regular commute-like rail if it was still in BC Rail's hands.

It most likely have had something being built for the 2010 Olympics, for starters. A SnowTrain... that would have been quite the legacy.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Oh there's definitely bitterness in the BC Rail fiasco. That was some prime trackage which I can almost guarantee would have had some regular commute-like rail if it was still in BC Rail's hands.

It's my understanding that CN has stopped running trains between Williams Lake and Squamish. They're now just using the north and south end of the line as a feeder into their interchanges at North Vancouver and Prince George.

I'm sure the folks in Lillooet are thrilled by this.

[casper]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Oh there's definitely bitterness in the BC Rail fiasco. That was some prime trackage which I can almost guarantee would have had some regular commute-like rail if it was still in BC Rail's hands.

It most likely have had something being built for the 2010 Olympics, for starters. A SnowTrain... that would have been quite the legacy.

My understanding is the line is still owned by the province but under a 999 year lease to CN.

However, there is a clause in the lease that requires CN to provide access on commercially viable terms to any operator that wants to run passenger service on the line.

[KincLosddy]

Originally Posted by casper

My understanding is the line is still owned by the province but under a 999 year lease to CN.

However, there is a clause in the lease that requires CN to provide access on commercially viable terms to any operator that wants to run passenger service on the line.

The most important question there is whether the tangible definition of "commercially viable" is defined by the leaseholder or the government. If it's the former we are S.O.L.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I don't see any scenario where both 2WAD and freight can coexist on literally a single track.

[mattropolis]

Not sure what 2WAD is, but single track railways have this thing called sidings which allows trains to pass each other. Even some single lane roads have this feature, common in Britain.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

Not sure what 2WAD is, but single track railways have this thing called sidings which allows trains to pass each other. Even some single lane roads have this feature, common in Britain.

"2WAD" is short for "Two Way All Day". I agree that 2WAD is viable with sufficient sidings which effectively create semi-double track lines—Amtrak and Burlington heading down through White Rock prove that to be the case—but the Sea-To-Sky BC Rail line is not exactly well prepared for the sidings that would be required right now.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mattropolis

Not sure what 2WAD is, but single track railways have this thing called sidings which allows trains to pass each other. Even some single lane roads have this feature, common in Britain.

Elaborating on chow's point, there's a grand total of two sidings between Lions Bay and Porteau Cove (let alone all the way to Whistler) and none on the North Shore. Not very conducive for four passenger trains an hour.

The Sea-to-Sky was never designed as a high capacity railway - they figured the province would expand it when the time came.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Elaborating on chow's point, there's a grand total of two sidings between Lions Bay and Porteau Cove (let alone all the way to Whistler) and none on the North Shore. Not very conducive for four passenger trains an hour.

The Sea-to-Sky was never designed as a high capacity railway - they figured the province would expand it when the time came.

Even 1 train an hour would be an improvement over 0 trains per year... or for that matter, 0 buses per day.

How about a single train that goes from North Vancouver to Whistler and then comes back. No need for any sidings in that case. Just a train going back and forth, giving service for people going up to the mountain in the summer and winter. Effectively a single train every 4 hours or so.

Outbound, leaving North Van
7am
11am
3pm

Inbound, leaving Whistler
9am
1PM
5PM

I realize it's maybe unrealistic to make the trip from North Van to Whistler in 2 hours with stops in Lion's Bay and Squamish. But then again, maybe not.

I'm also not sure you'd need the same service to Whistler all day as you would to Squamish. You could even do a schedule which would really only require a single pass in Squamish, which shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Start with 2 trains. One sits in Whistler, one in North Vancouver.

Assumptions:
NV–SQ : 85 min
SQ–WH : 60 min

15 minute slack built in at SQ
Trains leave NV at 7:00, 10:00, 13:00, 16:00
Trains leave WH at 7:15, 10:15, 13:15, 16:15

Something like this.
Orange = outbound
Indigo = Inbound
Red = Trains pass (in Squamish)


With creative use of sidings, or perhaps passing at a Lion's Bay stop, you could probably slot in a 3rd train.... maybe only running between NV and Squamish. That'd get you trains between Vancouver and Squamish every 90 minutes or so... and then add another trip for later travel for good measure:
Outbound Trains from NV:
Leaving NV at:
7:00, 8:30 s, 10:00,11:30 s 13:00,14:30 s, 16:00, 17:30 s, 19:00
Leaving SQ (whistler bound) at:
8:30, 11:30, 14:30, 17:30, 20:30
Leaving SQ (Vancouver bound) at:
7:00, 8:30, 10:00, 11:30, 13:00, 14:30, 16:00, 17:30, 19:00, 20:30

Inbound Trains leave WH at:
7:15, 10:15, 13:15, 16:15

Something like this: